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The following announcement was made earlier today:
Evidence for this was provided by former TSP delegate, Devonitians, who was contacted by Anur-Sanur about unseating Kandarin (Naivetry) from the delegate position. The full statement with copies of the telegrams can be found here.
So Anur-Sanur was kicked out of The Rejected Realms community for trying to coup their delegate who in turn found out because he had confided with an officer of The Rejected Realms that was trying to coup The South Pacific's delegate? ::mind blown::
"No one starts a war; or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so; without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it." - Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz
Guy
Boltor Level (44) [AWD:010304070a0b0d0e0f111213141c1d1e222628293b3718]
The Rejected Realms did not intervene in TSP. I had to idea as to the identity of Dev. The coup was performed by individuals, who happened to be from TRR.
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Post by Tsim Sha Tsui on Jun 8, 2011 1:53:57 GMT -5
Individuals that still *are* part of the RR's government. The grand poobah herself knew of and supported their actions... how many people need to have been involved from TRR before you consider TRR "involved"?
"No one starts a war; or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so; without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it." - Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz
The Rejected Realms' statement on the identity of Devonitians
In the days since the revelation of Devonitians' identity, we in The Rejected Realms have spent many hours discussing the events surrounding his coup of The South Pacific. We make this statement now as a region, recognizing that while the views of our individual members vary, we stand united in affirming the truth of the following statements.
While serving as Foreign Affairs Officer in The Rejected Realms, Sedge took control of the delegacy of The South Pacific under the nation Devonitians, using all native endorsements. Only Crazy Girl, who followed him to TSP shortly after he was elected delegate, was aware of Devonitians' identity prior to his seizure of the delegacy. Biyah and Dalimbar, also Officers of The Rejected Realms, discovered Sedge's identity and attempted to work with him to influence the outcome of the elections procedure he had begun. TRR Delegate Naivetry was informed of Sedge's identity shortly before the end of the coup, after Devonitians had forwarded correspondence to her concerning another nation's attempt to overthrow TRR, but was not privy to any other discussions which took place during the event.
During the coup and its aftermath, Sedge neither asked for nor received any help from The Rejected Realms. Biyah and Dali secretly assisted him in pursuit of their own private agenda. Crazy Girl's involvement was limited to chatting on the RMB and endorsing Devonitians (in compliance with his rules for election) shortly before he was forcibly removed from the delegacy. Contrary to the statement issued by Biyah, neither Crazy Girl nor Sedge "used their positions to push TRR into neutrality". In fact, no citizen of TRR ever proposed, either in public or in private, that The Rejected Realms should intervene. Our neutrality as a region was consistent and complete, based on the understanding - prior to any of our citizens' discovery of Sedge's identity - that we had no right to involve ourselves in the internal operations of another region.
Following the return of the delegacy to Southern Bellz, The Rejected Realms issued a statement criticizing TSP's regional government for a lack of engagement with the region, and suspending diplomatic relations. While Sedge as Foreign Affairs Officer initiated the embassy closure, the content of TRR's statement was not impacted by the knowledge of who Devonitians had been. Rather, it outlined a theory of government predicated on the responsibility of a feeder government to all of its residents. We continue to assert that the legitimacy of a government in the feeders depends not on the opinion of a subset of nations on offsite forums, but on the degree to which that offsite government works to represent all of the nations it serves.
As a foreign region, The Rejected Realms has no right either to condemn or to approve of coups which involve only the endorsements of those native to a region. Accordingly, we do not, and never have, condoned Devonitians' coup of The South Pacific. Furthermore, we strongly condemn the manner in which the coup was conducted in its latter stages, as Devonitians resorted to the ejection and suppression of native opposition to maintain his control over the delegacy. We also condemn the use of outside troops on either side, and we remain disappointed that the first such troops to infringe on the sovereignty of The South Pacific were brought in to depose a delegate elected solely by native endorsements. We maintain that the appropriate first response to a shift in native endorsements would have been an unendorsement campaign; in that way, control over the delegacy would have remained in the hands of the natives of The South Pacific rather than in the hands of outside military forces. By bringing in outside troops, The South Pacific's forum government chose to place their trust in foreign allies rather than in the hands of the nations they were supposed to represent. The reluctance of the government to place its fate solely in the hands of the residents of The South Pacific underlines the degree to which the forum had become disconnected from the region as a whole. That disconnection was - and remains - the only reason TRR has suspended relations with the forum government of TSP.
The Rejected Realms is a unique community, composed not only of people who consider TRR their primary home, but also of those whose interests in NationStates extend to other regions and organizations. While we remained neutral as a region, our citizens were responsible as individuals for action on both sides of the conflict; citizens of TRR moved in to support Southern Bellz as well. In making this statement, we uphold the right of all of our citizens to take action which differs from the position of The Rejected Realms as a whole. In return, we expect them not to use their positions within TRR to further their own individual goals, but to place the well-being of TRR and its community ahead of their individual agendas.
To the extent that we believe those involved in events in The South Pacific have failed in their responsibilities to the community of TRR, we will pursue sanctions against them as individuals in our own region and for that reason alone. The Rejected Realms remains a place of refuge committed to a policy of neutrality and non-interference in the internal affairs of other sovereign regions, while the newly restarted Rejected Realms Army remains dedicated to defense and the protection of regional sovereignty across NS. We thank those in the interregional community who have given us time to respond collectively to these events for their patience, and encourage those who have additional questions to direct them to our embassy, our Delegate, or our acting Officer of Foreign Affairs, Guy.
"There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors." - C.S. Lewis, "The Weight of Glory."
Individuals that still *are* part of the RR's government. The grand poobah herself knew of and supported their actions... how many people need to have been involved from TRR before you consider TRR "involved"?
This is the big kicker for a lot of people.
“Crazy Girl's involvement was limited to chatting on the RMB and endorsing Devonitians (in compliance with his rules for election) shortly before he was forcibly removed from the delegacy. Contrary to the statement issued by Biyah, neither Crazy Girl nor Sedge "used their positions to push TRR into neutrality". In fact, no citizen of TRR ever proposed, either in public or in private, that The Rejected Realms should intervene.”
Did Crazy Girl or did she not endorse Devonitians in support of his invasion of the South Pacific? Political double speak isn't going to change what actually happened.
If you read Sedge's address to the RR, during the invasion, it's very specific about the need to keep out of the South Pacific because it was an "internal" power struggle. So he didn't use his influence to get the RR involved, but he sure used it to keep them from getting involved.
Sedge endo-tarted his way to the delegacy/invasion of TSP. This is the plain and simple facts...and Sedge is still a big part of TRR's government? If so, that only tells me that the TRR are OK with major players of their government invading other regions/leading a coup. Both things are the same as far as I see
All Hail The FRA!
For every crisis - there should be 5 minutes of forethought
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Post by Tsim Sha Tsui on Jun 18, 2011 21:54:11 GMT -5
It really bugs me how this proclamation keeps referring to "Devonitians" like he actually existed. Devonitians and Sedge are and always were the same person. Naivetry seems to think I could create a nation called "Tsui Tsim Sha", lead a coup against a duly elected delegate in a foreign region, banject anyone who disagrees with me, and lie about it... and it's all good because "Tsim Sha Tsui" and "Tsui Tsim Sha" are completely different people!
That is, of course, unless I was trying to coup her... then she would eject me from the regional forums, strip me of my citizenship, and declare me persona non grata.
The Rejected Realms did not intervene in TSP. I had to idea as to the identity of Dev. The coup was performed by individuals, who happened to be from TRR.
So I should be able to go raiding with The Black Hawks with my aforementioned "Tsui Tsim Sha" nation and still remain a member of TITO? I would be, rightly, expelled from XKI and TITO for doing such a thing. I'm deeply disappointed in TRR for their apparent lack of any sort of moral clarity. That they side with an amoral narcissist over their allies and their own history is beyond troubling.
Last Edit: Jun 18, 2011 22:02:01 GMT -5 by Tsim Sha Tsui
"No one starts a war; or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so; without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it." - Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz
I'd like to take a moment to respond to some of the points made here, if I may.
First - yes, CG endorsed Devonitians just before he was removed from the delegacy - that is, well after he had already swapped his way up. I don't know what other nations, if any, she was endorsing in TSP. The reason that sentence was included in our statement was simply to clarify the order of events, not to excuse anyone's behavior.
Second - TCF, I'm not sure what post you mean. I've looked around a bit in the likely places on our forum, but I haven't found any post of Sedge's encouraging TRR to remain neutral, besides the statement that we issued after Devonitians had already been removed from the delegacy. I know this is a little awkward to ask, but could I have a link?
Third - Sedge remains a part of the government of TRR until the citizens of TRR see fit to remove him. That's how democracy works, I'm afraid. Now, I never understood this when I was the one applying diplomatic pressure... but the more outside regions push for someone's head, the less likely a region is to give it to them, just so they can show their independence. We have plenty of people who are plenty upset with Sedge; but we're determined to deal with him on our own terms. That doesn't mean we approve of what he did! It does mean we have to consider what is the most appropriate - and feasible - way to handle having such a player in our region.
Fourth - Tsim, I'm one of the last people in the game who would argue for 'duality', which is what you're describing. I am extremely skeptical about whether or not it ever works, or could ever be made to; I believe the idea of keeping in-game personalities separate from each other is flawed in principle, and I am inclined to distrust anyone who thinks otherwise. I do think it's helpful - and accurate - to talk about Devonitians as the main actor in the coup, since that is the only name we knew him by in The Rejected Realms until well after Sedge had taken the delegacy.
If you would like to discuss our handling of Anur-Sanur, I would be glad to. I would note, however, that we did not "eject" Anur from the forums or "declare him persona non grata". He simply lost the citizen masking which he had abused. No other changes have been made to his account, which is still listed as 'member'. I also encouraged him via PM to appeal his removal from citizenship if he was so inclined, but he has yet to respond to that offer.
Lastly, we have condemned Sedge's activities as Devonitians, as noted above, both in public and in private discussions. I assure you TRR does not in any way consider what he did to be appropriate. But, unlike 10000 Islands, we have the responsibility and the privilege - as a game-created region without the ability to banject - to serve as hosts to everyone who comes to us. That is a part of our identity we don't take lightly, and it does and will continue to affect the way our government responds to the situation. This is the first crisis faced by our government since the retirement of Kandarin the Elder. We want to be sure we handle it in a way that allows us to uphold all of our principles, and that is a tricky thing indeed.
"There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors." - C.S. Lewis, "The Weight of Glory."
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If you would like to discuss our handling of Anur-Sanur, I would be glad to. I would note, however, that we did not "eject" Anur from the forums or "declare him persona non grata". He simply lost the citizen masking which he had abused. No other changes have been made to his account, which is still listed as 'member'. I also encouraged him via PM to appeal his removal from citizenship if he was so inclined, but he has yet to respond to that offer.
How you handle an attempted coup is, of course, your business. I apologize if I was misinformed (and, by extension, spreading misinformation) about Anur-Sanur's coup attempt. But the fact remains that he is no longer a citizen because of attempting a coup in TRR whilst an officer of TRR was attempting a coup in TSP. That TRR leadership found out because Anur-Sanur confided in Sedge (disguised as Devonitians) adds another layer of hypocrisy. Why was Southern Bellz in the wrong for doing the same thing (defending a duly elected government) you did?
Furthermore, TRR did not remain neutral in TSP. You released a 700 word statement ostentatiously about "not getting involved" that mostly consisted of bashing Southern Bellz. And who posted this on your behalf? Sedge.
We haven't even touched on the resulting kerfuffle within the FRA as a result of this mess...
Please forgive me if I remain outraged.
Lastly, we have condemned Sedge's activities as Devonitians, as noted above, both in public and in private discussions. I assure you TRR does not in any way consider what he did to be appropriate. But, unlike 10000 Islands, we have the responsibility and the privilege - as a game-created region without the ability to banject - to serve as hosts to everyone who comes to us. That is a part of our identity we don't take lightly, and it does and will continue to affect the way our government responds to the situation. This is the first crisis faced by our government since the retirement of Kandarin the Elder. We want to be sure we handle it in a way that allows us to uphold all of our principles, and that is a tricky thing indeed.
The only "condemnation" I can recall of Sedge's actions was that you didn't approve of him suppressing and banjecting people. And, as noted, that was followed by 600 words of smack-talking the elected government of TSP. There has been no punishment, as far as I can tell.
In regards to upholding "all" of your principles. If your principles conflict with one another, you end up holding none.
"No one starts a war; or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so; without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it." - Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz
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If posting in this thread is no longer permitted, please let me know. I wasn't sure how you deal with closed embassies, here, so my apologies if a response to the last post of the discussion is out of line.
But the fact remains that he is no longer a citizen because of attempting a coup in TRR whilst an officer of TRR was attempting a coup in TSP. That TRR leadership found out because Anur-Sanur confided in Sedge (disguised as Devonitians) adds another layer of hypocrisy. Why was Southern Bellz in the wrong for doing the same thing (defending a duly elected government) you did?
Anur-Sanur's attempt was different from Devonitians' in two ways. First, and most importantly, Anur was attempting to bring outside troops into the region because he could not find support for his coup - nor could he swap up on his own without us finding out - internally. Second, he was abusing his position as a registered citizen on TRR's forums by sharing posts from a protected forum with outsiders. Whatever else Sedge did, he didn't try to double-cross the forum community of TSP by, say, joining the forums just to overthrow the government. He ignored the forums of TSP entirely. Now, that may be a worse insult - but compared to what Anur did, I'd say it's a lesser (and in any case a different) offense.
Now, if TSP had simply used an unendorsement campaign, TRR would not have criticized the region at all. Similarly, if Devonitians had initially been supported by any foreign endorsements, we would not only have supported TSP's use of outside troops in return, but we would have been justified in sending in whatever help we could. I know people seem to think that the argument about the source of Devonitians' endorsements is just an excuse - that because we've been critical of TSP, we must actually have supported Devonitians. But that is simply not the case. I really could not be more serious about the importance of all-native endorsements, or more committed to the principle that the nations of the region are always the ones whose right to choose a delegate MUST be defended.
In making our initial statement, posted by Sedge as our FA Officer at the time but written by me, we drew on our experience with dissidents in TRR who had argued that our forum was disconnected from our region. We faced that criticism, and we took steps to ensure that no one would ever be able to claim it was true, by telegramming every nation in TRR who had been there longer than two weeks and inviting them to register to vote in our elections. That level of commitment to the nations of our region - not just to those who make it to our forums on their own - remains our guiding principle. Anur, like any other nation, is perfectly free to run for the delegacy of TRR. For that matter, nations are free to try to take the delegacy simply by swapping, without any process of approval on our forums at all. We may ask them to register on the forums so we can get to know them, and failing that we may telegram their endorsers so that the nations of TRR are aware of what is going on, and aware that they are being called on to make a choice about the way the region will be governed. But then we trust them to make that choice. We only draw the line - and we have only asked for outside help - when a swapper switches from swapping with our natives to actually invading with foreign endorsements, as JAL did with The Imperial Legion, and as Anur was intending to do.
That is the difference, and it's fundamental. Pointing to Sedge and Anur and trying to say that they were doing the same thing because both were attempting a coup, is like saying that taxation is the same thing as armed robbery, because both involve people being forcibly parted from their property. Now, whatever you may believe about the ethical status of the government coming in to take away a portion of your hard-earned income, it's still not the same thing as getting mugged in a parking garage at gunpoint. And that's the distinction I insist on making.
Furthermore, TRR did not remain neutral in TSP. You released a 700 word statement ostentatiously about "not getting involved" that mostly consisted of bashing Southern Bellz. And who posted this on your behalf? Sedge.
We issued the statement only after Southern Bellz had regained the delegacy, and we made a point of saying that the loss of the delegacy had been the failure of an entire system, not of an individual. If we had intended to influence the conflict one way or another, we would not have waited until after it was over to make a statement!
The only "condemnation" I can recall of Sedge's actions was that you didn't approve of him suppressing and banjecting people. And, as noted, that was followed by 600 words of smack-talking the elected government of TSP. There has been no punishment, as far as I can tell.
Our statement above: As a foreign region, The Rejected Realms has no right either to condemn or to approve of coups which involve only the endorsements of those native to a region. Accordingly, we do not, and never have, condoned Devonitians' coup of The South Pacific. Furthermore, we strongly condemn the manner in which the coup was conducted in its latter stages, as Devonitians resorted to the ejection and suppression of native opposition to maintain his control over the delegacy. We also condemn the use of outside troops on either side...
To restate: We don't disapprove of nations swapping endorsements with the natives of the region. How could we? That's nothing more than the most basic mechanism of the game. We can disapprove - and we have disapproved in this case, even from the beginning - of what someone does after reaching the delegacy. And we can and do disapprove of anyone bringing in outside troops, because that, my friends, is what constitutes an invasion, and what robs the natives of the region of their exclusive right to determine who becomes their delegate.
To the extent that we believe those involved in events in The South Pacific have failed in their responsibilities to the community of TRR, we will pursue sanctions against them as individuals in our own region and for that reason alone...
The discussions referred to in that line are still ongoing in our private forum. As I said, this is the first crisis we have faced as a government and, unlike 10000 Islands, we are far from being a homogeneous crew. No smaller group can simply ignore the opinions of the rest of the region, or decide for them what should be done; we take democracy seriously, and democracy takes time.
In regards to upholding "all" of your principles. If your principles conflict with one another, you end up holding none.
If our principles conflict with yours, still that doesn't mean we have none. If you believe that TRR should not be open to all nations that come to us, as long as they do not try to use us for their own purposes... well, first you'll have to give us an eject button so we can be as selective about our membership as you would like, and then explain to the world that people only have rights when those in power choose to grant them. If that is truly what you believe would be best for TRR, then we will have to disagree on what principles it is best to uphold in NationStates.
I'm writing here not to preserve relations - it seems too late for that - but because I believe with all my heart that what I'm saying here is true. And I believe that any game philosophy which privileges the few and the powerful on their forums at the expense of ordinary nations in the game-created regions, is no better than the most blatant tyranny. It took a friendly opponent to make me understand that truth in TRR. If it costs us our embassy to make others understand it here, I will be honored to be called your opponent as I have been to be called your friend.
Thank you again for your patience, and for the courtesy of allowing me continued access here. I wish you all the best.
"There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors." - C.S. Lewis, "The Weight of Glory."