Hey, Candlewhisper , you, me and Paffnia should found a club of liberals where we drink tea an stuff. :D
Tea, eh? The symbol of British capitalist Imperialism, and the global suffering that resulted from it? The free-market driving force behind massive opiate addiction in China, and one of the primary sources of the international narcotics trade? The reason that Hong Kong became the "capitalist paradise" of the 20th century? That symbol of worker exploitation in India, that glorifier of the processes of industrialisation over quality? That legal stimulant that sells a dream of wakefulness and productivity, but medically leads to tiredness, shortened lifespans and depression? That product that epitomises the marketing madness of "prestige products", tied to the class warfare of the last few centuries?
That tea?
I kid, of course. I love tea. I'm British and Chinese, how could I not? :)
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Post by Hahiha / USSR on Nov 27, 2015 19:02:29 GMT -5
Louis, how dare you exclude me, we're all equals.
Jacques Barzun said:
Education in the United States is a passion and a paradox. Millions want it, and commend it, and are busy about it. At the same time, they degrade it by trying to get it free of charge and free of work.
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I'm not aware that you ever outed yourself as a liberal.
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Hey, Candlewhisper , you, me and Paffnia should found a club of liberals where we drink tea an stuff.
Paid for by taxes on the rich, of course.
Seriously Paff!?
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Yeah Hahiha / USSR, i'm aware of that, its a tool to control people in any sistem, thats one of the reasons of why I defend a small state.
Candlewhisper, Actually, not exactly. Your vision of libertarianism is too much Rothbard. Quoting Ron Paul: "There will always be the state", since is he the essential stone to assure justice between people (people x corporations, enviroment x corporation, state x corporation, people x state, etc); and yes, today the government treats life, liberty and property, but that doesn't mean we don't want him, we need him to assure properly all this things with solid laws. As for welfare-education-health, a small and effective state isn't blind for then, but as the goal of a libertarian state is the individual accumulation of capital, so people can take care of it self, i'ts waste of money to create gangantuals state depart. Best to create simple ways to poor people get help, using the private companys to provide quality service. A little exemple in the education depart.; there is a school in India, private, offering classes for $ 6 a mouth, the same way you have jerks trying to dispute power you'll always have those that really want to make difference. And then, the market do the magic, poor people became a consumer market.
Now lets think, how can we have freedom if you intervening on it? Its like i'm free to choose my options, but it's only A, B or C, aproved by the govement of course.
"To a liberal, the goal is human rights, social justice and freedom. That is, the freedom to do what you like yourself, but not to infringe on the freedom of others. Government is needed, because society is responsible for protecting everyone within it, not just leaving things to sort themselves out. That starving guy on the street corner? Liberalism says we have a collective responsibility as a society to make sure that he isn't starving, that his freedoms are protected, and that his opportunities are protected."
Man I agree with all that, and so do any libertarian, the difference is that I belive people should help each other by themselves. If there is a starving guy on the street people shold gather togheter and help him. The theory of voluntarin society of Marx Weber says exactly that, we are too used to just trow money in the government and hope for the best, if the streets are fulls of starving people it is responsibility of everybody, but not a obligation.
Corporations should be accountable for their actions too, they aren't cause they usually have the government in their pockets, but with a small government that doens't regulate too much this wouldn't be such a problem. And like I said before, a government that "gives and gives and gives" has control of the masses, so it's really hard to just kick like that. Lets remember Chaves and Venezuela in the 1999 bolivarian constitution, people lost their liberties and standing ovation.
But if you know that a corp. do something that you don't like, in a free markt you would have tens of other corps to choose at your free will. Thats why big corps are so much against libertarian government system, they doesn't really like competition.
And wow since I have "Liber" in my belive too, can I joing te tea?I bring the cookies!
Post by Candlewhisper on Nov 30, 2015 5:13:47 GMT -5
Excellent post, but I have to say I'm incredibly surprised you pick out India as a place where the free market system driving education is a great success story. While its certainly true that India has a much greater proportional dependence on private schooling than most western nations, I presume you're also aware that the youth literacy rate (15-24 yr olds) in India is a mere 84% for young men and 74% for young women?
And the success that is there, how has that been achieved? Well let's take a look.
In 1947, the government put in programs to encourage female attendance at school, including free midday meals, free books, free school uniforms. These reforms were aimed at primary school, and raised female primary school attendance from around 5% (pre-reforms) to 15% within 10 years and 30% within 30 years.
Its been state-funded state-controlled intervention that is bringing literacy, closing gender gaps and creating better global education in India for the past 60+ years. Its one of the big success stories of Asia, though there's still a long way to go. Laissez-faire capitalism? No that doesn't educate the rural poor, or encourage traditional families to send their young girls to school After all, in traditional culture, the woman's place isn't at work, its in the home.
Its state-sanctioned socialism that is fixing education in India.
Actually I just pick a good private iniciative, not saying that state-education is working or not in India, thats another topic, and I lack information (and source) to argue with you. Again I don't think mandatory polices will solve the question either (or any question at all, people always find a way to do what they think is right, no matter how morally wrong it is). But if you have the options for those that want to face archaic rules of family and society, if you protect and nurture this people, then things will really change. You can only change those that want to. Otherwise it's just a illusory/temporary change.
Last Edit: Nov 30, 2015 8:48:38 GMT -5 by Kon Island
Post by Candlewhisper on Nov 30, 2015 12:21:04 GMT -5
That's both bleak and optimistic, in that you don't think you can change people, and in that you think that left alone people will do the right thing.
The problem is, history is full of people being utterly horrific to each other when left to their own devices, and its only the intervention and influence of broader society (which is what government is, ultimately) that makes people better.
My own worldview is also bleak and optimistic. Its bleak, because I believe that if the state steps back and lets people do what they like to help those around them, then people will do that and only that: help people immediately around them. Its the old problem of the Monkeysphere: we can care about what is happening to our brother, or our friend, or even to the stranger who is dying on our doorstep, but as individuals its hard to care about someone dying in a desert in the Middle East where they're out of sight and mind, or a Syrian child we don't know drowning in a sea somewhere, or even someone living in another town in the same country who has cancer and needs help, but who means nothing to us personally. The purpose of society, in my view, is to help us overcome this very human tendency to think about the small picture. Society decides to get some people together to think about the big picture (government) and they can then worry on our behalf about the guy with cancer that no-one has met, or the refugee we don't know the name of, or the multitude of issues that haven't been been brought to our personal attention. Government can say "everyone's problems should be fixed by everyone". The monkeysphere still exists for governments, of course, but its drawn on national and continental lines rather than family and friends lines. In my mind, we won't have a truly decent world until we have a single world government that cares for every single person in the human race.
Ah, right, the optimistic part...
My optimism lies in the fact that as humans we're very good at building societal structures, and these structures are generally to the benefit of those within them. As pan-humankind we've performed miracles, developing public health, environmental awarness, peacemaking on a global scale, establishing a universal declaration of human rights. To me, 21st century Earth is the best place its ever been, but its a work in progress, a slow march towards a broader sense of shared identity and society, and of mutual responsibility.
You say that humans help each other out, if left to it. I agree. Building societies is how we do that.