Dude... Legalize it...

[Iwerddon]

Pot. Legal or no?


I've never smoked it. I never had a desire to and then watching my smart friends become retards and years later seeing them still stuck at 13 years old mentally cinched it up. I disliked the potheads in school all my life.

But... I think it should be legal. 21+ I don't think legalizing it for adults is going to change a dang thing with youth usage or current abuse - but it will get rid of the ganja underground... then maybe the current drug task squads can focus on the real drug problems.

[Sheynat]

Never touched it here, either. But I'm very much in favor of its legality. It's the same problem that arose with Prohibition. I honestly can't understand why so many can't or won't see that.

People WILL get their hands on this stuff, no matter what, because they can't stop themselves, even if they want to. If possible, they will acquire it legally. Make it legal, regulate it, people will always buy the legal stuff. Even if you tax the snot out of it it'll be cheaper than the black market stuff is today. But if you keep it illegal, they will acquire it illegally-because it's addictive. They can't help themselves-they will do anything necessary to acquire it. They will turn to crime to raise funds for it. Marijuana, in the present situation, both funds and causes crime, just as alcohol did during Prohibition. Legalize it, and it will do neither. Not to mention that right now, they're giving out harsher sentences for marijuana than for freakin' manslaughter.

[Estayland]

So you want to legalize something that'll make people retards? I dont get it. If you know that the activity is very dangerous, why allow it? It's not a thrill like skydiving.

While I am all for liberty and freedom, there is a line that needs to be drawn. Why do you think things like street racing are illegal? Because it's dangerous.

Who cares about taxing it... what about the new spending we'll have because of the health care they'll need, or what about the lost tax revenues because they won't get good paying jobs?

[MinnaCaroline]

I don't think it should be legal at all. Its smells and its disgusting and it turns people into idiots. I would not want to walk into a restaurant where it could be served and have my children exposed to something like that. Just as with underage drinking underage kids would find a way to do it too.

[Anime Daisuki]

I'm in full agreement with Estay, even though 90 percent of the time I disagree with him.

Just compare world crime rates again, the pot-free nations like Netherlands have one of the highest crime rates in the world. The problem with marijuana and other form of drugs is that they are addictive and as pointed out before, they change a person. People will beg, steal or even kill to feed their addiction. Once they succumb to that addiction they become completely useless human beings and a burden or danger to society.

This issue is one of two that I do not see eye to eye with the Obama campaign.

[New Dracora]

I'm actually a little undecided when it comes to legalisation of pot and drugs in general for that matter. On one hand, legalisation makes support services far easier to implement and brings users out from the underground. On the otherhand the stuff we are talking about here can seriously mess with your mind and in the process can destroy lives on a much greater level than the current socially acceptable poisons of choice, i.e booze and tobacco. Pot is no exception to this - I know a number of long term pot smokers and all of them are neurotic, overly-paranoid individuals with short tempers living on the poverty line.

[Twobagger]

Jul 15, 2008 16:28:50 GMT -5 MinnaCaroline said:

I don't think it should be legal at all. Its smells and its disgusting and it turns people into idiots. I would not want to walk into a restaurant where it could be served and have my children exposed to something like that.

This sounds a lot like the arguments against smoking tobacco and alcohol. Add in "but it causes cancer too" and it starts being hard to tell which is which.

Anyway, people are going to smoke marijuana whether it's legal or not. I think legalizing and regulating it would make it a little less dangerous... as it is, dealers can sell anything and call it marijuana, whether it's actual marijuana or some other (possibly dangerous) substance. I don't think it would bring in all that much revenue, but that really isn't the important part.

[MinnaCaroline]

I'm not against tobacco and alcohol being legal but I am against Marijuana being legal. If you don't like my reasoning look at Estays and AD's, they make much better arguments than me!

[Iwerddon]

I think they are just making the same argument that can apply to other things. Especially alcohol. Just replace "pot" with "booze" in this thread and it would be right on.

So my entire argument in one sentence: If you want alcohol to be legal, then pot should be too.

[MinnaCaroline]

You can measure how drunk a person is. You can't measure how high a person is. There is no way of regulating it, our society would turn into a bunch of zombies. If you take a drug test and you have been smoking pot the night before it shows up positive, how is your boss going to know you're not getting high at work? Do we really want this? I say no.

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

I'm not sure either way. I won't say i've never used it, but i'm not necessarily in favour of legalisation. I think keeping it illegal, but also keeping it as a class C, or even a D (if such a catagory exists) is best. Obviously dealing should carry a higher punishment. It's not always a gateway drug, i think it depends on your pre-disposition. If you use it a lot then you'll probably lower your mental faculties, but as a very occasional recreational drug it's less harmful than alcohol.

[The United Antarctic]

Jul 15, 2008 6:24:57 GMT -5 Estayland said:

So you want to legalize something that'll make people retards? I dont get it. If you know that the activity is very dangerous, why allow it? It's not a thrill like skydiving.

No, it's the other way around, pot doesn't make you stupid, it's just that stupid people smoke pot, as pot, like all other drugs, are readily available in low income areas, where there is a lack of quality education, as well as a lack of money to further children education.

While I am all for liberty and freedom, there is a line that needs to be drawn. Why do you think things like street racing are illegal? Because it's dangerous.

Street Racing is illegal because it can cause property damage, and lost of innocent life.

Who cares about taxing it... what about the new spending we'll have because of the health care they'll need, or what about the lost tax revenues because they won't get good paying jobs?

What a blatant stereotype. People who smoke pot don't instantly become retards and wastes of society. As I said before, pot does not make people stupid, stupid people just tend to do drugs more than smart people. Oh yes, and pot smoker can't get jobs BECAUSE pot is illegal, as most jobs require drug tests.

[The United Antarctic]

Jul 15, 2008 16:49:11 GMT -5 Anime Daisuki said:

I'm in full agreement with Estay, even though 90 percent of the time I disagree with him.

Just compare world crime rates again, the pot-free nations like Netherlands have one of the highest crime rates in the world.

Actually, the Netherlands is below the UK, the US, Denmark, Finland, and New Zealand in terms of crime rate.
www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

The problem with marijuana and other form of drugs is that they are addictive and as pointed out before, they change a person. People will beg, steal or even kill to feed their addiction. Once they succumb to that addiction they become completely useless human beings and a burden or danger to society.

Addiction to marijuana is much more mild than other drugs, as I've met many people who have easily quit using pot after they have smoked it for long periods of time. Oh yes, and people can get addicted to alcohol and nicotine as well, but you don't see them murdering people to get their fix.

This issue is one of two that I do not see eye to eye with the Obama campaign.

[The United Antarctic]

Jul 17, 2008 17:15:06 GMT -5 MinnaCaroline said:

You can measure how drunk a person is. You can't measure how high a person is. There is no way of regulating it, our society would turn into a bunch of zombies. If you take a drug test and you have been smoking pot the night before it shows up positive, how is your boss going to know you're not getting high at work? Do we really want this? I say no.

Want what? People getting high at work? In reality, people who are stoned can perform tasks as accurately as they do sober.

www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7271

[MinnaCaroline]

Though cannabis intoxication increased the time required for subjects to complete their tasks, volunteers’ accuracy was not adversely impacted by pot.

So you're saying as long as they get the job done accurately it doesn't matter how long it takes them to do it. Well great I'd love to see how much company time is wasted by these idiots hanging around going "wait... dude I need to do something I just can't remember what it is right now."

[Iwerddon]

If someone doesn't perform adequately, you fire them. If they show up high, you fire them (You can tell when someone is currently high). If they show up and smell like crap all the time, you tell them to clean up or you can fire them.

So this is no different that things that already happen~ Not asking that employers suck it up and take $$ loss for their pot workers.... Pot smoking would probably cause less $$ loss than tobacco smoking! Place next door to us has a gaggle of 8+ smokers out on break *constantly*!

[Anime Daisuki]

I don't know how anyone can defend marijuana use in the face of the mountain of information out there proving its harm. It's like the neo-cons saying there's no global warming or some christians saying the world is only 2000 years old.

If you go to a library, preferably a university library and access its online network, look for the link to 'database' or 'articles' and search for the word 'marijuana', you will find thousands of scholastic articles in journals, books, from the fields of psychology to criminology on that subject. The scientific and academic community is in general agreement on the harmful effects of pot.

If you don't have access to a university, search google scholar, or search google news.

Here's an excerpt from what I found from American Medical Association's journal of General Psychiatry, it talks about how pot users have shrunken brains.

---

Brain scans showed the hippocampus and amygdala were smaller in men who were heavy marijuana users compared to nonusers. The men had smoked at least five marijuana cigarettes daily for an average of 20 years. The hippocampus regulates memory and emotion, while the amygdala plays a critical role in fear and aggression.
The study also found the heavy cannabis users earned lower scores than the nonusers in a verbal learning task, trying to recall a list of 15 words. The marijuana users were more likely to exhibit mild signs of psychotic disorders, but not enough to be formally diagnosed with any such disorder, the researchers said.
"These findings challenge the widespread perception of cannabis as having limited or no harmful effects on (the) brain and behavior," said Murat Yucel of ORYGEN Research Centre and the University of Melbourne, who led the study.
"Like with most things, some people will experience greater problems associated with cannabis use than others," Yucel said. "Our findings suggest that everyone is vulnerable to potential changes in the brain, some memory problems and psychiatric symptoms if they use heavily enough and for long enough."
Among the 15 heavy marijuana users in the study, the hippocampus volume was 12 percent less and the amygdala volume was 7 percent less than in 16 men who were not marijuana users, the researchers said.

---

Another excerpt from a National Institute of Health article:

The short-term effects of marijuana addiction can include problems with memory and learning, distorted perception, difficulty in thinking and problem solving, loss of coordination and increased heart rate. Research findings for long-term marijuana use indicate some changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term use of other major drugs of abuse. One study has indicated that a user’s risk of heart attack more than quadruples in the first hour after smoking marijuana. The researchers suggest that such an effect might occur from marijuana’s effects on blood pressure and heart rate and reduced oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood. Smoking marijuana increases the likelihood of developing cancer of the head or neck, and the more marijuana smoked the greater the increase. A study comparing 173 cancer patients and 176 healthy individuals produced strong evidence that marijuana smoking doubled or tripled the risk of these cancers. Marijuana use also has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke. It also produces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their carcinogenic form levels that may accelerate the changes that ultimately produce malignant cells. Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which increases the lungs’ exposure to carcinogenic smoke.

Depression, anxiety, and personality disturbances have been associated with marijuana addiction. Research clearly demonstrates that marijuana has potential to cause problems in daily life or make a person’s existing problems worse. Because marijuana compromises the ability to learn and remember information, the more a person uses marijuana the more he or she is likely to fall behind in accumulating intellectual, job, or social skills. Moreover, research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on memory and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off. Students who smoke marijuana get lower grades and are less likely to graduate from high school, compared with their non-smoking peers. A study of 129 college students found that, for heavy users of marijuana (those who smoked the drug at least 27 of the preceding 30 days), critical skills related to attention, memory, and learning were significantly impaired even after they had not used the drug for at least 24 hours. The heavy marijuana users in the study had more trouble sustaining and shifting their attention and in registering, organizing, and using information than did the study participants who had used marijuana no more than 3 of the previous 30 days. As a result, someone who has a marijuana addiction may be functioning at a reduced intellectual level all of the time. More recently, the same researchers showed that the ability of a group of long-term heavy marijuana users to recall words from a list remained impaired for a week after quitting, but returned to normal within 4 weeks. Several studies associate workers’ marijuana smoking with increased absences, tardiness, accidents, workers’ compensation claims, and job turnover. A study of municipal workers found that those who used marijuana on or off the job reported more withdrawal behaviors such as leaving work without permission, daydreaming, spending work time on personal matters, and shirking tasks that adversely affect productivity and morale. In another study, marijuana users reported that use of the drug impaired several important measures of life achievement including cognitive abilities, career status, social life, and physical and mental health.

---

Also to The United Antarctic:
Being ranked #9 highest crime rate in the world out of 60, is not exactly what you can call, a safe country. And if you look at per capita murder rates instead of general crime, you will find Netherlands ranked much higher than other western nations.

[Estayland]

It's like the neo-cons saying there's no global warming or some christians saying the world is only 2000 years old.

Off topic, but there is mounting evidence and lots of scientists that say global warming is a hoax; and the world is 6000 years old, not 2000.

[New Dracora]

Jul 18, 2008 12:11:00 GMT -5 Estayland said:

It's like the neo-cons saying there's no global warming or some christians saying the world is only 2000 years old.

Off topic, but there is mounting evidence and lots of scientists that say global warming is a hoax; and the world is 6000 years old, not 2000.

As a former student of geology, I beg to differ - but if you want to debate this you should start a new thread

edit: I'm talking about the world's age of course, not that other stuff

[Iwerddon]

I don't know how anyone can defend marijuana use in the face of the mountain of information out there proving its harm.

Well... possibly due to the mountain of evidence that it isn't quite as harmful as the other mountain says it is? There are gobs of studies, just picking the ones you want to make your point doesn't count... especially when there are counter studies and counter counter studies and so forth. The only safe bet is that doing it is more harmful than not doing it... but so is a lot of other things!

It's like the neo-cons saying there's no global warming or some christians saying the world is only 2000 years old.

So then... it's not like when people who aren't neo-cons say there is no global warming? Just neo-cons? Personally I don't think it's a boolean issue... and it's definitely not a neo-con vs. everyone else boolean issue =P

That sentence is 3 bad debate tactics rolled into one! Are you running for office?

On a side note: Wow who woulda thought this would be such a hot thread? I figured it would be a 5 responser =P

[Libertarian Freemen]

Alcohol and tobacco are legal. Why not Marijuana? If it's legal, the black market will cease to exist, prices will drop, and crime will not be as high because it will be within the means of anyone to buy so theft will no longer be necessary to fund the habit.

I think many of the dangers of marijuana are overstated (though not all of them) and that it could have a definite medical advantage. I haven't tried the stuff, but I've been tempted to try it for pain relief. I couldn't smoke it, though. If tobacco smoke makes me ill, I suspect Mary Jane would be far worse.

[Brother Pat]

My teacher once brought up an interesting point on the matter of legalizing mind/behavior-altering substances:

YES. Legalize ALL of the drugs. Then all the dumb asses who do drugs will die off. It all comes down to survival of the fittest.

If you dont do drugs: Good for you. You live to see another day.
If you DO drugs: Congratulations, your life is now in the crapper. Good luck getting out.

If everyone does drugs, all that will be left are the 'elite.'

Besides, most of the people who do drugs arent productive. Whats the point in "holding drugs away at arms length"?

From an economic standpoint, the government can use the money that they get from selling drugs to fund things like Health Care. Or our wonderful education system. Or rehabilitation centers for people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol, so that they never do drugs again.

Whatever.

[Estayland]

www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-08/eu-bgw080108.php

From an economic standpoint, the government can use the money that they get from selling drugs to fund things like Health Care. Or our wonderful education system. Or rehabilitation centers for people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol, so that they never do drugs again.

Ive never liked this type of argument. For instance, Congress in it's wisdom put a tax on cigarettes to fund the state childrens health program or S-CHIP. This means, we need adults to do unhealthy things to pay to keep children healthy. With your suggestion, we need people to participate in risky behavior to fund health care and education.

What the problem with legalizing drugs is that they will make themselves dumb or a vegetable, which then become a drain on our government because of the spending required for the free health care he'll then recrive.

[Brother Pat]

Aug 7, 2008 14:43:34 GMT -5 Estayland said:

www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-08/eu-bgw080108.php

From an economic standpoint, the government can use the money that they get from selling drugs to fund things like Health Care. Or our wonderful education system. Or rehabilitation centers for people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol, so that they never do drugs again.

Ive never liked this type of argument. For instance, Congress in it's wisdom put a tax on cigarettes to fund the state childrens health program or S-CHIP. This means, we need adults to do unhealthy things to pay to keep children healthy. With your suggestion, we need people to participate in risky behavior to fund health care and education.

What the problem with legalizing drugs is that they will make themselves dumb or a vegetable, which then become a drain on our government because of the spending required for the free health care he'll then recrive.

I understand what you mean, but all this revolves around my "survival of the fittest" idea. What do you think about that?

[Estayland]

Unfortunately in America, survival of the fittest doesn't work, especially if we continue on this socialist path we've been on for a few years now. The government allows people to stay on welfare and free medical care with no incentive to better themselves. If we ignored government intervention, then your idea would work better.

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

It sounds like some of the anti-pot arguments are based on heavy marijuana usage, e.g. 5 joints a day from one of the studies cited by AD. It's generally not a good idea to drink five beers a day either but people still do it. It's been a while since I did any research on dope's effects, but I recall a lot of research said it was as bad alcohol, and the US trying to out law that backfired. (Also, Joe Kennedy made money as a bootlegger and now we have Kennedys, curses!) Anyway, too much of most anything is bad. You shouldn't eat red meat all the time, you need fruit, starch, etc. Binge drinking is bad, really bad. Heck, coffee addictions are trouble too. Heavy usage of just about anything, especially over time, is bad

What about moderate amounts? A joint or two a week should not be a problem , like a glass of wine a day is alright. I also have never heard of a guy stoned on dope attacking anyone like I have with alcohol. I have lived outside of Penn State, currently ranked #3 party school in the US, and I figure by now I would have heard if dope makes people violent. I have heard of lot of cases of alcohol fueled violence. Alcohol also has potentially lethal overdose, again, I haven't heard of pot killing a person in one night.

If smoke is the problem, dope can be brewed like tea (I think Queen Victoria did that for cramps) or mixed with butter and cooked into something.

I think part of the problem is marijuana is treated like crystal meth or crack, and it isn't. Before the Nixon administration marijuana was called a "soft drug", sorta like alcohol. If fact, Nixon commissioned a study that concluded that dope should be legalized. As a political move only, Nixon disregarded the study.

norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5097

norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5049

www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/nc/ncmenu.htm

I've got mixed feelings on cocaine, I'm all for outlawing roofies, GHB and rape drugs. But dope just ain't in this category and Prohibition just didn't work.

(Aside: As for survival of the fittest, it does prune out the crystal meth addicts at least. )

As to vice taxes, i.e. taxes on tobacco, alcohol, gambling, etc. (Lotteries too, that's the tax for not getting statistics.) The taxes don't stop people so the funding will stay in place. Furthermore, we might as well get some benefit out of harmful behavior that we haven't been able to stop.

[New Dracora]

Aug 19, 2008 19:39:43 GMT -5 TheSensitiveNewAge said:

Binge drinking is bad, really bad. Heck, coffee addictions are trouble too.

LIES!!!!!111

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

ND, I'm assuming sarcasm unless you elaborate.

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

lol. Yeah, i'd say it's a safe assumption TSNA, and i agree with your views on cannabis. It's a mellowed out drug, and makes you less prone to violence. It's effects in moderation are minimal, especially if consumed in non-joint form. But yeah, that's just repeating what you said i suppose.

[New Dracora]

Aug 27, 2008 13:32:50 GMT -5 TheSensitiveNewAge said:

ND, I'm assuming sarcasm unless you elaborate.

*Is a heavy coffee drinker.*

*Is also aussie.*

In other words: yes, that was sarcasm