Evidence for a God

[Pompadoodle]

Religious objects don't bother me at all. And theres rather a lot of religious art that I actively like- mediaeval cathedrals, religious paintings, Bach's organ music, the incredibly beautiful language of the KJ bible...etc.

Otoh, I probably count as an extreme atheist. I haven't met many atheists with more hardline views than myself.

So I don't know what you're talking about cerb. Are you sure that you don't mean extreme vampires rather than extreme atheists? They're supposed to have a problem with crosses.

[Enigmatic]

I think it's all about perspective. You are definitely an extreme atheists, Pomp. I know I travel in mostly Christian circles, but I've spoken to plenty of people who don't believe in God and you're the best example I can think of. That said, you have a different perspective from that base worldview than others might have. You're intelligent for one thing and you also strike me as at least a bit of an optimist. You look at medieval cathedrals, religious paintings, Bach's music, King James English, etc. and see(I hope I'm not putting too many words in your mouth.) man's skill and artistry and curiosity and beauty and talent. When another atheists views the same things all he or she may see is "religious ignorance." They may see the cathedrals and think of the Crusades. They may read the King James Version and think of nothing but arguing against what it says. They may see the paintings and rather than think what an complex and beautiful piece of artwork instead think what a prime example of all that is wrong with the world. Maybe they've had unpleasant experiences with the church. Maybe they're just unpleasant people in general. I don't think it really has anything to do with being an atheists exactly, I think any problem stems with religious objects stems from the individual. In the same way that I as a Christian can find something of value in Buddhism or in the Greek myths or Islamic art and atheist can value in the Christian art and what I mentioned above as well. Some people though just like to have a problem with things whether it's really necessary or not.

[Takaram]

Believe it or not Enig, the large majority of atheists are just like that. We can look for the good things about religion, even if we don't like the whole message or follow it. Like with any other group, there is always simply a small minority of demagogues who give anyone else with remotely similar ideas a bad name.

[Cerb]

We had a lawsuit filed here to remove a large cross that is visible from the city here. I think the lawsuit fell through because the cross was on private land (or land that was instantly given to a private group) to prevent the "church and state" argument being used.

[Guy]

I never had any trouble with those objects, I can appreciate religious objects in a non-religious way.

However, I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state, and I would definitely sue if there was a cross on a public land, unless it was really supposed to be non-religious (unlike that ten-commandments case where your Supreme Court got it completely wrong).

and you're the best example I can think of

Come to Australia, more than 50% of our population doesn't give the slightest damn about religion

[Pompadoodle]

Sept 7, 2010 19:13:50 GMT -5 Enigmatic said:

I think it's all about perspective. You are definitely an extreme atheist, Pomp. I know I travel in mostly Christian circles, but I've spoken to plenty of people who don't believe in God and you're the best example I can think of. That said, you have a different perspective from that base worldview than others might have. You're intelligent for one thing and you also strike me as at least a bit of an optimist. You look at medieval cathedrals, religious paintings, Bach's music, King James English, etc. and see(I hope I'm not putting too many words in your mouth.) man's skill and artistry and curiosity and beauty and talent.

Thanks Enigma

I'm quite happy to be labelled as an extreme atheist. If there are such creatures as extreme atheists then I am surely one of them. And I'm also quite happy with the words that you put in my mouth- they sum up my views rather nicely.

When another atheists views the same things all he or she may see is "religious ignorance." They may see the cathedrals and think of the Crusades. They may read the King James Version and think of nothing but arguing against what it says. They may see the paintings and rather than think what an complex and beautiful piece of artwork instead think what a prime example of all that is wrong with the world. Maybe they've had unpleasant experiences with the church. Maybe they're just unpleasant people in general.

Yeah, I've come across atheists like that. As Tak says, they're a relatively small minority. Some of them are just intolerant philistines. But ime they're mainly people who've had an upbringing that was both strictly religious and abusive. For example, there was a young woman on an atheist site that I used to frequent who'd been forced to recite bible passages while being beaten (literally) black and blue by her sadistic step-father (who also raped her). For someone like that, any sort of religious imagery is likely to provoke an extreme response.

I don't think it really has anything to do with being an atheists exactly, I think any problem stems with religious objects stems from the individual. In the same way that I as a Christian can find something of value in Buddhism or in the Greek myths or Islamic art and atheist can value in the Christian art and what I mentioned above as well. Some people though just like to have a problem with things whether it's really necessary or not.

Nice to hear that you appreciate pagan and other non-christian religious art. Tbh I'd expect that from an educated and intelligent individual such as yourself. I don't think that theres any real connection between religious beliefs and aesthetics. You can be a Christian and find the tragedies of Sophocles inspiring, while knowing full well that they're based on pagan mythology. You can be a Muslim and find the beauty of the windows at Chartres staggering, while knowing full well that they're Christian religious imagery. You can be an atheist and still be overwhelmed by da Vinci's 'Madonna of the Rocks'. And so on.

[Globexanter]

It dosn't care who you are, where you are and what you do.
You believe in what you wan't.

[Enigmatic]

Sept 8, 2010 5:59:43 GMT -5 Pompadoodle said:

Thanks Enigma

I'm quite happy to be labelled as an extreme atheist. If there are such creatures as extreme atheists then I am surely one of them. And I'm also quite happy with the words that you put in my mouth- they sum up my views rather nicely.

Yay, I'm perceptive. And you're welcome.

Yeah, I've come across atheists like that. As Tak says, they're a relatively small minority. Some of them are just intolerant philistines. But ime they're mainly people who've had an upbringing that was both strictly religious and abusive. For example, there was a young woman on an atheist site that I used to frequent who'd been forced to recite bible passages while being beaten (literally) black and blue by her sadistic step-father (who also raped her). For someone like that, any sort of religious imagery is likely to provoke an extreme response.

That's quite understandable. Such actions are terrible and inexcusable. It's important to remember though that the such actions are done by men and aren't condone by God. Obviously those sort of things aren't going to bring a person closer to Christ. The world is full of some very unpleasant people and unfortunately some of those people claim to be Christians.

Nice to hear that you appreciate pagan and other non-christian religious art. Tbh I'd expect that from an educated and intelligent individual such as yourself. I don't think that theres any real connection between religious beliefs and aesthetics. You can be a Christian and find the tragedies of Sophocles inspiring, while knowing full well that they're based on pagan mythology. You can be a Muslim and find the beauty of the windows at Chartres staggering, while knowing full well that they're Christian religious imagery. You can be an atheist and still be overwhelmed by da Vinci's 'Madonna of the Rocks'. And so on.

Exactly. Man has created a lot of culture in his time on this planet. It's only fitting that we learn about it and learn from it and appreciate it for what it is. You can accept something as untrue in a factual sense but that doesn't mean that there isn't something enjoyable and valuable that can be taken from it.

[Pompadoodle]

Sept 8, 2010 20:03:07 GMT -5 Enigmatic said:

That's quite understandable. Such actions are terrible and inexcusable. It's important to remember though that the such actions are done by men and aren't condone by God. Obviously those sort of things aren't going to bring a person closer to Christ. The world is full of some very unpleasant people and unfortunately some of those people claim to be Christians.

Theres nothing in either Christianity (or for that matter humanistic philosophy) that supports child abuse- quite the opposite. However, I've come across enough examples of religiously-framed abuse to lead me to think that there is a pattern, though not a pattern which has anything to do with the content of Christianity. My hypothesis is that abusers often feel guilty about what they're doing, and this leads them to frame their abuse in religious terms. By doing so they're able to justify their unjustifiable actions to themselves. Christianity has nothing to do with it- if our dominant morality were based on Carl Rogers, then they'd be claiming that abuse led to self-actualization.

Incidentally, I wouldn't say the same thing about Islam (if you think that I'm negative about Christianity, then you haven't heard what I have to say about the other big monotheistic religion). But thats probably a topic for another thread.

Exactly. Man has created a lot of culture in his time on this planet. It's only fitting that we learn about it and learn from it and appreciate it for what it is. You can accept something as untrue in a factual sense but that doesn't mean that there isn't something enjoyable and valuable that can be taken from it.

Yes, thats it in a nutshell.

[Guy]

Oh,, I completely forgot about our last discussion about religion in which I promised I'd prove that being a good person is more important than the rest of the Mitzvot in Judaism. I promise I'll do it.

[Enigmatic]

That's a very astute hypothesis regarding child-abuse, Pomp. I've always said that man's greatest ability was rationalization. It's amazing what people will embrace or pervert or out-and-out invent in order to justify their action and their inaction.

Was that in this thread or the other thread, Guy? I know Pomp and I coopted both threads for our little exchange. I think the good person thing would go better in the Religion and Ethics thread.