DEBATE - Does TIP contribute effectively...

[XKI University]

Motion: Does the Taco Island Party contribute effectively to the politics of 10000 Islands.

Standard debate rules apply, please review the instruction thread, even if you've read it already. Refresh your memories. 10000islands.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=xkiuniversity&action=display&thread=14291

The debate will begin at 11:00 Pacific Time on March 3, 2010.

Make sure to decide within your team who speaks first. Please make posting them up prompt and orderly. Wait your turn! I will announce all penalties at the end of the speeches and urge islanders to take these into account while voting.

[Wordy]

Good Afternoon
As I am on a strict word limit I will jump straight into my arguments for TIP

First I would like to point out that since TIP was founded it has effectively had at least one or more members run for Senate. TIP provided a sounding board and support to these members. It helped provide the confidence for these members to run for Senate

Second TIP has an ongoing healthy membership due to its light-hearted manner and is a gentle introduction to the politics of 10ki for younger nations.

Thirdly TIP has contributed to the economy of 10ki over 14,000 tacos allowing its members to spend these tacos on bribes, advertising, and new shoes effectively keeping the economy of 10ki healthy. A failing economy has led to the downfall of many governments and caused civil unrest.

Lastly I would like to point out how very pretty I am.

[MinnaCaroline]

< *claps for Wordy* and murmurs yes, she is very pretty.

[XKI University]

Thank you for the within-limit speech, Wordy. A bit early by my watch, nonetheless could the first speaker from the opposition now please speak?

[Markanite]

Here we go!: TIP is a Populist Party therefore it has no common ideology to join its members together. This type of party can hinder those who wish to present their own liberal or conservative ideas and use them to help better 10000 islands. Nations of different ideologies can find no representation in TIP and some nations with more extreme views may feel alienated. Common ideology is usually what binds a party together and helps them inspire their members in something to believe in, strong beliefs can help create strong party identification, this is lacking with TIP and will eventually lead to divisions. This can also means necessary reform, which may be needed, is incapable of being achieved as TIP silences more extreme voices favouring populist aspects, policies and candidates. This clearly means that few revolutionary candidates will be able to help revolutionise XKI if at all with TIP

[Walabamba]

You have it all wrong Markanite, A diverse party is just what 10000 Islands needs. Do you think that 10000 Islands would be even be near as good without diversity? A party with diverse members with diverse ideas and ideals gets more done then a party without any diversity ever would. This way, TIP contributes ideas that can get shot down but isn't that how politics work? With diverse ideas TIP can contribute more ideas then any other party possibly can and the ideas are different and therefor there is more of a possibility of one them being an idea that can change 10000 Islands in a wonderful way.

The above made sense to me, although I don't know if it will make sense to anyone else

[Twobagger]

TIP isn't "diverse," just unorganized.
Back when we had organized parties, the candidates had to show that they wanted to help the region to get their party's support. Then, each party's candidates had something to offer. You could choose someone who represented what you wanted, because candidates told you what they had planned.
Now, things have changed drastically. Now, the candidates have yet to post their ideas and plans for when they take office. Now, no one knows what to expect from a candidate. Now, no one has a chance to choose a candidate that represents them because the candidates don't represent anything. This makes TIP the least diverse party in XKI history.
This cheats the region. Instead of getting candidates who run because they want to help the region, we get candidates who apparently run because they think it would be fun to be Senator.

[Hockeynutville]

The Islands Party isn’t diverse??

We have Guys, we have Girls. We have teens, we have 20 somethings, we have 30 somethings. We have veterans of the Islands from over 6 years, we have newcomers to Nationstates. We have Americans, Australians, Canadians, English, and probably more I've left out. I'm not sure how you can get more diverse than that. Yes, we don't run on a "strict" system. Why, because we have one common theme; we’re here to have fun and make the Islands a wonderful place to unwind.

Frankly, anyone who questions our motives of running for office to be selfish and strictly to goof off has been greatly misinformed. If you believe you know what is best for our region then run yourself and win with the better platform. Otherwise, I suggest certain people would do better to not insult dedicated and active citizens of the Islands.

[OutSiderz]

The opposition, thus far, appears focused on diversity and organization , not the topic of the debate, effective contributions. I conclude from that, that they also know that the TIP contributes effectively. All of our parties do, if their members are active. Let us not be so easily swayed by opposition that states that there is no core ideology for TIP members to get behind. Again, ideology is off topic.

TIP is effective by mass recruiting (the ever common meet and greet is a cornerstone of any social and political arena), and positions in office (I thought that the whole idea of NS and 10KI was fun). I'll conclude with wise words that I think represent TIP's effectiveness very well.

"All great deeds and all great thoughts have a ridiculous beginning. Great works are often born on a street corner or in a restaurant's revolving door."
Albert Camus

[The Candy Lane]

a question for TIP then:
What have TIP senators done to contribute to 10ki

(I've been away for a/b 1yr so dont really have a side here)
wat i gather the 'opposition' is saying is that TIP lacks the capacity to contribute to there fullest potential - not that they cant contribute, but that they could do so better by bringing forward there political position on NS and 10KI related issues.

[Bad Infinitum]

Mar 3, 2010 23:59:14 GMT -5 The Candy Lane said:

a question for TIP then:
What have TIP senators done to contribute to 10ki

I just thought I should point out a bit of irony here. Maybe not irony, per se, but it is definitely incidental and worthy of note.

As a brand new Senator under the TIP banner, the first item on my agenda was revamping the Senate Offices into the Senate Lobby, to be a more productive place for anyone to feel welcome to bring their ideas to the attention of the Council. The idea of reopening the University was brought to the brand spankin' new Senate Lobby, the advent of which was primarily my brainchild, and was taken to the Council for refinement and implementation.

Through this process, I supported the reopening of the University with all the power I could muster. SovietPrussia put a lot of hard work into getting things pulled together and approved through the Council, and MinnaCaroline and I had his back the whole way. Now that the University is opened, within 48 hours the question is posed "What have TIP Senators done to contribute to this region?"

What the hell? It's because of TIP Senators that we're even having this debate. The halls of this institution are painted with TIP sweat and blood, only to have our hard work and even our very integrity questioned from day one.

I'm sorry, Candy Lane, I didn't mean to go off like that, but I'm just a little irritated at the nature of this debate right now.

[MinnaCaroline]

I thought I could stay away and remain quiet and silently take it. But I can't. As the founder of TIP I feel I need to say something.

The March of 2009 elections were... okay. Iwerrdon the incumbent ran against, well nobody. 17 people voted for him, 3 people declined to vote for him, that was Lyonese East.

For Himes West it was Nixon against, well nobody. 12 people voted for him and 8 people declined to vote for him.

It was a sad. I was sad. Nobody wanted to be in the Senate. People were declining to vote for the candidate up for election but they wouldn't run themselves. I have not always been the outspoken Min we all know and love. I was a very shy islander, never posted. Then one day Sinn asked me if I'd like to run for Senate and that I'd have the whole backing of UPP. I couldn't believe he was asking me! ME! I know what its like to be that islander who is new and doesn't know anyone and doesn't know how to get involved.

So UPP was dead, I wasn't logging into ACN anymore, I decided to make my own political party to get people more active, to get new guys to come out of their shell and get the confidence to run for office! This place is fun! The more active we are the more fun it is! Isn't it fun to log in and see responses to your posts? See that people are reading what you are writing?! I wanted to project that and get people active and wanting to run.

This March of 2010 election cycle is a FAR cry from the March 2009 elections and I am happy to report that we have not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 but 6 people from the very political party that I started a little less than a year ago running for office this time around!!!

Can I say Mission Accomplished!! I want to thank all my TIPpers for being part of this awesome political party and helping to get the islands where we are today. We are all very active involved people who strive to make the islands better and to be questioned that it doesn't contribute put a knife in my gut. (figuratively).

There. I've had my say. I'm done now. But I'll shameless plug my party...

Come join TIP!!! I'll pay you 100 Tacos and you get to stab Shelter! Don't worry he heals fast! ;D

[OutSiderz]

[XKI University]

All our assigned speakers, with the exception of Wordy have fallen short of 150 words.

You all make me sick! ;D

Well seeing as HNV seems to have filled in for Guy, this back-and-forth is due to continue for a bit longer, then the vote will be put up.

[Shelter from the Storm]

* inflates more balloons. *

So many people are cynical about politics these days. Criticizing TIP for being ideologically undefined misses the point entirely. 10KI is a community. A community devoted to light-hearted fun, the defence of regions which are victims of invaders and providing an outlet for those of us who need to spend a few hours being relaxed and among friends. Although I have never met anyone who posts here, I feel like I know many of you personally. TIP is there to serve this community without getting involved in the political nonsense so common in RL politics. I am a notorious lefty in RL but here in 10KI I get along with folks of all political stripes. I am confident that those running under the TP banner want to make 10KI a better place for all of us. Isn't that enough?

BTW, since I am not an official debater, am I limited to 150 words?

[The Candy Lane]

Mar 4, 2010 0:11:43 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

Mar 3, 2010 23:59:14 GMT -5 The Candy Lane said:

a question for TIP then:
What have TIP senators done to contribute to 10ki

I just thought I should point out a bit of irony here. Maybe not irony, per se, but it is definitely incidental and worthy of note.

As a brand new Senator under the TIP banner, the first item on my agenda was revamping the Senate Offices into the Senate Lobby, to be a more productive place for anyone to feel welcome to bring their ideas to the attention of the Council. The idea of reopening the University was brought to the brand spankin' new Senate Lobby, the advent of which was primarily my brainchild, and was taken to the Council for refinement and implementation.

Through this process, I supported the reopening of the University with all the power I could muster. SovietPrussia put a lot of hard work into getting things pulled together and approved through the Council, and MinnaCaroline and I had his back the whole way. Now that the University is opened, within 48 hours the question is posed "What have TIP Senators done to contribute to this region?"

What the hell? It's because of TIP Senators that we're even having this debate. The halls of this institution are painted with TIP sweat and blood, only to have our hard work and even our very integrity questioned from day one.

I'm sorry, Candy Lane, I didn't mean to go off like that, but I'm just a little irritated at the nature of this debate right now.

Given this post and Minna's and recalling past senate races, i will retract my questions. I now know just how ironic -and stupid- they were and i apologize for that.

[Twobagger]

Well, that was disappointing.
When I signed up for the thread, what I hoped for was a forum where two sides could honestly debate the merits of the TIP. Ideas would be exchanged, constructive criticism would be offered, and all involved would be better off.
What this seems to have turned into is a shouting match, where people who did not bother to sign up for the debate have marched in to defend their political party's diversity of ideas by making the same points over and over again.
It is quite clear from the responses that I have received both in this thread and out that the majority is intent on ignoring the points made in the thread, and bristles at the criticism offered up in the debate. From this, it's clear that there is no progress to be made and nothing more to be gained.
With that, I move to end this debate, as I do not wish to be shouted down by those who feel that the constructive criticism raised is a personal attack that needs to be responded to in force.

I should note that my debate opponents, on the whole, did a good job of responding to the criticism offered up, rather than taking personal offense. I do not mean to lump them in with the group of people that would rather shout down minority opinions than listen and respond with an open mind.

[Bad Infinitum]

Mar 4, 2010 19:29:28 GMT -5 Twobagger said:

What this seems to have turned into is a shouting match, where people who did not bother to sign up for the debate have marched in to defend their political party's diversity of ideas by making the same points over and over again.

I acknowledge that my statement was out of line, but I felt as if I had been personally attacked. Not my party, but me, as a Senator and Islander alike. When attacked, I tend to have a fairly strong reaction. The outlined rules and regulations of this debate took a backseat, in my opinion, in my intent to defend myself. I will not apologize, neither for what I said nor the fact that I said it out of turn.

With that, I move to end this debate, as I do not wish to be shouted down by those who feel that the constructive criticism raised is a personal attack that needs to be responded to in force.

I agree that this debate is a completely different creature from when it was initially conceived, and should probably be closed down. However, I do feel that there needs to be a less formal, more open dialogue regarding the topic at hand, since so many people seem to have such strong feelings regarding the validity (or lack thereof) of the Islands Party.

I had planned to open a thread in the Grand Debate Hall when this debate was concluded, and I still fully intend to do so at that time. Things that people want to say need to be said, and in order for TIP to grow as a party, those things must be heard and taken into consideration. Contrary to the severe lack of activity on all other political party's parts, there is apparently a fairly strong opposition to TIP's fundamental existence. Those voices until now have had no outlet, despite SovietPrussia's efforts to create an OPFOR to butt heads with the omnipresent Islands Party.

To be frank, the fact that TIP is 100% more active than all other political parties in the region says something about the party that can't be overlooked. Sure, some TIP candidates may not have a very sturdy platform, and some may be running for office just for the fun of it... but these things happen even without political parties. There will always be jokers and goofballs running for office, in NS and the real world alike. In general, the actual voting usually weeds out these folks, and things move on the way they should. However, should one of the aforementioned jokers actually win an election, then that is the will of the people and the people have to deal with it for the remainder of that person's term.

That's democracy.

[Klington]

Mar 4, 2010 19:46:37 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

Mar 4, 2010 19:29:28 GMT -5 Twobagger said:

What this seems to have turned into is a shouting match, where people who did not bother to sign up for the debate have marched in to defend their political party's diversity of ideas by making the same points over and over again.

I acknowledge that my statement was out of line, but I felt as if I had been personally attacked. Not my party, but me, as a Senator and Islander alike. When attacked, I tend to have a fairly strong reaction. The outlined rules and regulations of this debate took a backseat, in my opinion, in my intent to defend myself. I will not apologize, neither for what I said nor the fact that I said it out of turn.

With that, I move to end this debate, as I do not wish to be shouted down by those who feel that the constructive criticism raised is a personal attack that needs to be responded to in force.

I agree that this debate is a completely different creature from when it was initially conceived, and should probably be closed down. However, I do feel that there needs to be a less formal, more open dialogue regarding the topic at hand, since so many people seem to have such strong feelings regarding the validity (or lack thereof) of the Islands Party.

I had planned to open a thread in the Grand Debate Hall when this debate was concluded, and I still fully intend to do so at that time. Things that people want to say need to be said, and in order for TIP to grow as a party, those things must be heard and taken into consideration. Contrary to the severe lack of activity on all other political party's parts, there is apparently a fairly strong opposition to TIP's fundamental existence. Those voices until now have had no outlet, despite SovietPrussia's efforts to create an OPFOR to butt heads with the omnipresent Islands Party.

To be frank, the fact that TIP is 100% more active than all other political parties in the region says something about the party that can't be overlooked. Sure, some TIP candidates may not have a very sturdy platform, and some may be running for office just for the fun of it... but these things happen even without political parties. There will always be jokers and goofballs running for office, in NS and the real world alike. In general, the actual voting usually weeds out these folks, and things move on the way they should. However, should one of the aforementioned jokers actually win an election, then that is the will of the people and the people have to deal with it for the remainder of that person's term.

That's democracy.

No need for the debate. I already created a party to match everything that TIP does not contribute. You're welcome. Another day, another islander feud avoided.

[XKI University]

*facepalm*

Alright... I'll tell you all what I told Minna and Mutanatia by PM. Hope you two don't mind me using these, it'll save me writing all the essential points up again.

That's fine. Conscripting you was out of line.

But I defend my choice of motion. The idea behind the Uni debates is to discuss. It has no weight on anything being done in the Senate Lobby or the Co9. And read the motion itself, it's not an attack on the TIP. The opposition are inevitably going to have to, but the proposition have an equal opportunity to defend it. The debaters decide what to make of it. I'm not participating in the debate, and I'm not going to vote in the poll deciding the winner. I wasn't planning to in the begining. I've offered suggestions for both sides, given both sides experienced islanders and new islanders. The motion does intend to question TIP's role in XKI, but only in circumstances where TIP can be criticised and then defended fairly. We both have enough faith in XKIers to thinking the topic through for themselves and come to their own conclusion. That's what the University is about.

I'm not using this as a way to attack the TIP in any way or to promote my own. First of all my party thread didn't get any replies and all I suceeded in doing was embarrasing myself. Less interest than in the Red Islander Party. Even if I got a reply now I'm unlikely to go ahead with it. In all, it was a bit of a fail and I'm not going to give that any more effort. There are more important things to distract myself with. Think about it, what would I have to gain from a vendetta against TIP. Electoral success? I already have it. Do I get a kick out of upseting other people? You know me well enough to know that's not the case.

Yes, XKI shouldn't be taken too seriously, but it isn't just a lulzy region either. Serious discussion does happen and the region does great things across Nationstates. What I asked myself a few weeks ago, and what inspired me to think up the motion, was seeing newbies joining the party for the sake of joining. I can hardly actually complain about that though, I was no better. But it is an interesting question which has attracted people wanting to debate it. Anyway, back to the main point.

Debating TIP's contribution to regional politics isn't going to change anything. If the vote goes against your party will it disband? Will its members resign? No, none of that will happen. If it goes in favour of your party will TIP benefit? Aside from the right to rub it in to the opposition, not really.

I'm sorry I offended you, but I hope this has made everything clearer and you won't ask me to go on my knees and beg like the dog I am for your forgiveness. (no dogsuit and absolutely no photos)

All the best,

Sovietprussia

I defend the university's stance that debating XKI politics is helpful to the region, if a little volatile. It's only talking, it has no effect on partisan or Co9 policy, being comfortable discussing the controversial is a skill we want to nurture rather than shun. And it'll mean if there is any serious drama in the future, we're less likely to go OTT with it.

Now to all the unofficial speakers who have kind of disregarded the rules of debate I set forth, you were offered the chance to join a team, you didn't take that opportunity. (The exception being Minna who I drafted into it. Again, sorry about that)

Small questions to each of the speakers are fine and the debate invites them. But these debates need to remain civil, polite, and orderly. Otherwise me might as well be using the Grand Debate Hall. The University debates teach people speechcraft as well as arguing your points.

Anyway, after all this I'd like to put the issue behind us. Minna will be selecting the next motion of debate. Expect the worst. ;D (While I'm here, Minna, just send me the motion when you've thought it up. Soon as you can please)

However, I'd like to ask that we stop the discussion here. If anyone still feels like arguing about it, please talk to me privately or if you utterly must, use the GDH. But I'm going to have to annul the formal debate.

Again, if there's any problem, please let me know privately so we don't relight the shouting match.

[Bad Infinitum]

Mar 5, 2010 13:16:33 GMT -5 XKI University said:

Now to all the unofficial speakers who have kind of disregarded the rules of debate I set forth, you were offered the chance to join a team, you didn't take that opportunity. (The exception being Minna who I drafted into it. Again, sorry about that)

Yep, the rules went out the window when the designated speakers strayed off topic and decided that I didn't have a platform for my Senate campaign just because I flew the TIP banner. I recognize that I was out of line, but I was only following suit.

Mar 5, 2010 13:16:33 GMT -5 XKI University said:

Small questions to each of the speakers are fine and the debate invites them. But these debates need to remain civil, polite, and orderly. Otherwise me might as well be using the Grand Debate Hall.

This probably should have gone in the Grand Debate Hall to begin with. TIP is too large of a party for it to be represented by the first few people to raise their hands and shout "pick me!". Despite the notion that TIP's thread on the Political Party forum is busy and active, it's not just another spam thread. There are serious people in the party who actually have political motivation and prowess, and those people should be allowed to defend their position, regardless of the setting.

On top of this, you picked a hell of a time to start the debate. With TWO elections running concurrent to the debate, consisting of an unprecedented number of TIP candidates, you really could have waited until elections had concluded.

Mar 5, 2010 13:16:33 GMT -5 XKI University said:

However, I'd like to ask that we stop the discussion here. If anyone still feels like arguing about it, please talk to me privately or if you utterly must, use the GDH. But I'm going to have to annul the formal debate.

Agreed, and I will. This ain't over.

[The Candy Lane]

Mar 5, 2010 13:37:31 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

Agreed, and I will. This ain't over.

dont worry u got like 30 ppl in ur party... theres no way u can lose the pole

[Bad Infinitum]

Mar 5, 2010 13:56:55 GMT -5 The Candy Lane said:

Mar 5, 2010 13:37:31 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

Agreed, and I will. This ain't over.

dont worry u got like 30 ppl in ur party... theres no way u can lose the pole

Heh, I'm not concerned about winning or losing. I just want to hear what else people who aren't involved in the debate (yet) have to say. In order for TIP to continue to thrive, we need to hear what the region expects in it as a party and as a pool for potential candidates. That's why I'd support this debate being moved to a less formal setting. Everyone needs to speak up, not just the first few people who volunteered.

[XKI University]

Well we have the best of both worlds. GDH for dinner-table argument style debating, and the University for formal debates where structuring everything properly and dancing with word limits and morphing what the motion means to your side's advantage is part of the fun.

Anyway,

However, I'd like to ask that we stop the discussion here. If anyone still feels like arguing about it, please talk to me privately or if you utterly must, use the GDH. But I'm going to have to annul the formal debate.

[OutSiderz]

Well, I thought I played my role ok..........guess the rest of you feel different or couldn't care less

Good luck on your next debate........Maybe, i'll be in the audience

Take care

[MinnaCaroline]

I pronounce the next debate topic to be:

Social Networking (Twitter, Facebook, Myspace, Google Buzz...) - The wave of the future OR the Downfall of Mankind.