Is Suicide Counted as Murder?

[Pessimistic Sarcasm]

I've heard this argued over many times. Some people believe that suicide is the deliberate taking of one's life, so it is murder and deserves to be punished, in hell. Others say that suicide is not murder because u are free to take your own life. It is ur freedom to take it, and u shouldn't be punished to destroy something that is your own. I remain neutral, but I want to make a decision. I need some opinions.

[Shadowtech Demons]

I personally believe that if you want to, you should be free to end your own life.

[The Attica Peoples]

Well you can't really punish a dead person, so even it is is murder then the law can't do anything about it

[Estayland]

Suicide is the only crime that's punishable if attempted but not committed.

[Ananke II]

I've always thought it kinda weird that some religions see suicide as a sin. I mean, the people in danger of commiting suicide do so, because they find some part of their life so horrible that they can't bear to go on. Making their life worse by telling them that they'll go to hell doesn't seem like the greatest way to keep them from commiting suicide...

Either way, I don't think suicide has got anything to do with murder. In theory I agree with Shadowtech Demons. In practice that thought is hard to cling to when a suicide suddenly becomes personal.

[Bad Infinitum]

Suicide and murder are two separate, singular acts that both end with the same result: a corpse. Suicide is not murder any more than murder is a form suicide. Unless you're zen, in which case, it's all the same.

[Pessimistic Sarcasm]

Apr 29, 2010 14:09:52 GMT -5 Ananke II said:

I've always thought it kinda weird that some religions see suicide as a sin. I mean, the people in danger of commiting suicide do so, because they find some part of their life so horrible that they can't bear to go on. Making their life worse by telling them that they'll go to hell doesn't seem like the greatest way to keep them from commiting suicide...

yep, but some religions argue that the part of life that is horrible is only a test of God. If you give up, then you are unworthy to go to heaven. So this all ends with a whole system of messed-up human values. Don't do this or else...Don't do that or else...Do that or else...And some values go against each other, so pretty much suicide is argued over and over again and such...People always believe what they do is correct

[Enigmatic]

We're all unworthy of going to heaven. If suicide is a sin, it's no different than any other sin and no less able to be forgiven. God is willing to forgiven every other sin and allow us to spend eternity with him; why not this one? I've always thought this teaching very odd. I think that those who teach it are teaching something un-Biblical.

[snowwolfe]

I would Respectfully Like to argue the last two points... Suicide Is an Action And Murder is a action and a crime... Last time I checked The Modren Court of Law Often Doesnt Look at the Bible When they are Making a Decision in court of a murder trial To check if it is a sin to punish someone... The Act to take ones life Is a personal Decision and should not be considered a Crime.. Do we File Charges of assualt When you bang your Finger with a Hammer Building things.

No We dont because it is Self Inflicted and is an action done to ones self which you are the only victim to the actions you took.

[Pessimistic Sarcasm]

reasonable...but there are still things considering religion...yep, the government tends to view suicide as an action done to oneself and therefore shouldn't be punished, but religion tends to view it as violating God's commandment: "Thou shalt not murder".

[snowwolfe]

Agreed But in todays Society of the Great Melting Pot Should One Religion be looked at more Favorably then another In a choice Of law. Religion should never come into play when Dealing with a court mater as it adds a Biased View of the crime in question.

[McMulliness]

Apr 30, 2010 10:41:12 GMT -5 Enigmatic said:

We're all unworthy of going to heaven. If suicide is a sin, it's no different than any other sin and no less able to be forgiven. God is willing to forgiven every other sin and allow us to spend eternity with him; why not this one? I've always thought this teaching very odd. I think that those who teach it are teaching something un-Biblical.

I get what you are saying fully, but at the same time, in religious teaching, you have to ask for forgiveness of your sin to not have it on your "moral slate."

It would be kinda hard to ask for forgiveness when you are dead.

[Enigmatic]

Well, yes obviously if you die lost, for whatever reason, then that would apply. However, as Christ forgives all sin immediately and completely, should one kill themselves later the sin is already forgiven. Assuming that suicide is a sin.

[McMulliness]

Well... if you want to take things in a literal since.. the 6th commandment is "Thou shalt not kill"
You can find more about it in Exodus 20:14

Suicide is killing yourself, so it is a sin. Christ doesn't just forgive you for a sin after you have made it though. You actually have to ask for forgiveness. I would like to think that depending on your morals and the way you live though, that if you mess up right before you die, then you are not dammed to hell for eternity. I actually like to think that when you are judged by God, he takes your whole life into thought, good and bad, and they you are judged on that information. No one sin is worse than another, a lie is just as bad as murder in Gods eyes.

[vanlanderville]

I personally don't think it should be counted as murder. I mean, you're not really hurting anyone other than yourself. You may hurt them emotionally, but last time I checked, causing someone to cry wouldn't land you in jail.

[Enigmatic]

May 1, 2010 16:24:07 GMT -5 McMulliness said:

Well... if you want to take things in a literal since.. the 6th commandment is "Thou shalt not kill"
You can find more about it in Exodus 20:14

Suicide is killing yourself, so it is a sin. Christ doesn't just forgive you for a sin after you have made it though. You actually have to ask for forgiveness. I would like to think that depending on your morals and the way you live though, that if you mess up right before you die, then you are not dammed to hell for eternity. I actually like to think that when you are judged by God, he takes your whole life into thought, good and bad, and they you are judged on that information. No one sin is worse than another, a lie is just as bad as murder in Gods eyes.

Let's go with the first part first. In short, that command can be more accurately translated "thou shalt not do murder." At least so I have been told by several professors with at least one doctorate in theology. I haven't actually done the translation myself. I don't know the first thing about Hebrew.

The second bit:
Forgiveness from sin comes at the instant you ask for it. If you truly repent of your sins, God is faithful and just to forgive you your sins. This forgiveness is full and complete. Any sin you have ever committed or will ever commit is wiped away by Christ's sacrifice. His righteousness takes the place of yours. I guarantee that every Christian on the planet has sinned more than once following their salvation. I know I have. Salvation does not make us a perfect being, our sinful nature still remains. When you are judged, God does look at the whole of your life. The catch is that no matter how good you are, you, on your own, cannot live to God's standards. Admittance to heaven is based solely on your relationship to Christ. If you have asked for salvation, Christ's righteousness is attributed to you at your judgment. You are "damned to hell for all eternity" only if you rely on your own righteousness to save you.

Alrighty, that was rather off topic. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[McMulliness]

The part I have the most trouble with is when you are talking about the second issue that you have with what I said

I agree that you are forgiven completely when you are asked for it, that is not what I am arguing. What I am saying though is that you cant just ask for forgiveness once and be forgiven for everything. When you truly repent and ask for forgiveness you are also stating that you are going to do your best not to commit that sin again. It would be stupid of one to think that just because you ask for forgiveness once in your life that all of your sins are forgiven. That would it WAY too easy to get into heaven.

[Enigmatic]

Yes, repentance is resolving not to commit the sin again, but we must also acknowledge that we will fail. We are sinful creatures and as long as we are of this world we will never be able to escape that fact. If we must ask God to save us each time we sin, then there is no assurance. We cannot lose our salvation. Once we commit ourselves to Christ, once we are saved, then it is forever. We don't have to keep asking for that forgiveness each time.

Salvation as a whole means that we are rescued from the ruin of sin and are given eternal life through God's grace. Through the work of Christ we are saved from sin's penalty, spiritual death and eternal separation from God. Christ's saving work is perfect and complete. We are safe forever from death and hell once we accept Christ into our lives. There are plenty of verses which support this. (John 5:24, 10:28-29; Romans 8:1, 37; I Peter 1:3-5) If this was not the case then we have no hope and would constantly live in fear of screwing up and losing our salvation. This is not what God intended. He wants us to rest in our faith knowing that our sins have been completely wiped away.

Now, that does not mean we have license to sin. Faith without works is dead. Our good works are evidence of our changed nature. We are regenerated and given new spiritual life and we are meant to live as righteous a life as possible. Our sinful nature remains, though and we will stumble and fall. When this happens we must repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness. This does not mean that the sin removed our salvation, it is simply an acknowledgment of our failure and a resolution to do better.

[McMulliness]

The only real problem I have with that is what you said in your first section. How is it that once you commit yourself to Christ then you are saved forever? That is far from the truth. Christ always loves his children, but if they choose not to follow him, even if they once did, they are not still saved.

[Enigmatic]

That is not true. Once saved, always saved. In saying that salvation can be lost, you are limiting the power of God and devaluing the saving work of Christ. Yes, people can choose not to follow God. Those that follow and turn away are evidence that there are unsaved people even in the heart of the church. In all likelihood those that turn away were never a true Christian in the first place. There are also those that can lose their way, but that does not mean that they have lost their salvation. If they truly repented then they are brought into the family of God forever, even if they walk away from the church. If we can lose our salvation and gain it back and lose it again then salvation becomes our work not God's. For grace are we saved through faith and not of work lest any man should boast.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

John 10:28-29 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given `them' unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch `them' out of the Father's hand.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:37-39 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I Peter 1:3-5 Blessed `be' the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Pessimistic Sarcasm]

May 1, 2010 16:52:33 GMT -5 McMulliness said:

The part I have the most trouble with is when you are talking about the second issue that you have with what I said

I agree that you are forgiven completely when you are asked for it, that is not what I am arguing. What I am saying though is that you cant just ask for forgiveness once and be forgiven for everything. When you truly repent and ask for forgiveness you are also stating that you are going to do your best not to commit that sin again. It would be stupid of one to think that just because you ask for forgiveness once in your life that all of your sins are forgiven. That would it WAY too easy to get into heaven.

how can you resolve not to suicide again when you're already dead?

[The Candy Lane]

May 1, 2010 20:43:23 GMT -5 Pessimistic Sarcasm said:

May 1, 2010 16:52:33 GMT -5 McMulliness said:

The part I have the most trouble with is when you are talking about the second issue that you have with what I said

I agree that you are forgiven completely when you are asked for it, that is not what I am arguing. What I am saying though is that you cant just ask for forgiveness once and be forgiven for everything. When you truly repent and ask for forgiveness you are also stating that you are going to do your best not to commit that sin again. It would be stupid of one to think that just because you ask for forgiveness once in your life that all of your sins are forgiven. That would it WAY too easy to get into heaven.

how can you resolve not to suicide again when you're already dead?

Good question. and if u die while driving drunk i guess ur damned too?
God is limited by what u ask. He gives willingly. forgiveness isnt a once in a lifetime thing but its also not a pay-as-u-go plan. Forgiveness is a matter of faith.

"Since you did not get your salvation by what you did, you can not lose it by what you do.
Repentance is a necessary result of the saving work of God, not the cause of salvation. If repentance brought salvation, then salvation is by works; or rather, the ceasing of bad works. That isn't how it works. God grants repentance to the Christian (2 Tim. 2:25). The Christian then turns from his sin; that is, he stops sinning. He is able to repent because he is saved, not to get saved.
Suicide is, in effect, self-murder. The unfortunate thing about it is that the one who commits it cannot repent of it. The damage is permanently done. We can see in the Bible that murderers have been redeemed (Moses, David, etc.), but they had opportunities to confess their sins and repent. With suicide, the person does not. But that does not mean the person is lost. Jesus bore all that person's sins, including suicide. If Jesus bore that person's sins on the cross 2000 years ago, and if suicide was not covered, then the Christian was never saved in the first place and the one sin of suicide is able to undo the entire work of the cross of Christ. This cannot be. Jesus either saves completely or he does not." - Matt slick
(Emphasis added)

The only unforgiveable sin is the Sin against the holy spirit. Mt 12.22-32

[McMulliness]

No, I think that limiting the power of Christ is saying that you are always saved. Christ gave people the choice to follow him or not. People choose what they do in life and if they are going to follow a religious path or not.

I am not saying that forgiveness is a pay as you go plan... if you are talking about when someone has to keep asking forgiveness for the things that they know they are doing wrong, then yes, I guess it is pay as you go in those terms because it is an ongoing process of realizing the things you have done wrong and asking for forgiveness. In my thought when you say you're sorry is asking for forgiveness.

It troubles me when people call others out and saying they werent saved in the first place if they go astray, but in this situation I ask... who are you to tell me that I wasn't saved? It is a lot like love. There are a lot of people out there who think that you have to be of a certain age/maturity level to truly know what love is... but how is that so?

I think everyone presents good arguments here, but it really does trouble me that I truly was saved at one point in time, following Gods word and doing my best to be like him, but now I feel that even though I think there is a God and I know that he is there, I am not truly saved form damnation.

So on this topic, I will state my opinion of it is hard to tell. I think no one really knows the true answer, everyone just has educated guesses. It comes down to a matter of faith. Do you think that even though you are committing a sin of some sort that you will go to heaven or not? That is up to every person.

[Pessimistic Sarcasm]

May 1, 2010 21:21:46 GMT -5 The Candy Lane said:

May 1, 2010 20:43:23 GMT -5 Pessimistic Sarcasm said:

how can you resolve not to suicide again when you're already dead?

Good question. and if u die while driving drunk i guess ur d**ned too?
God is limited by what u ask. He gives willingly. forgiveness isnt a once in a lifetime thing but its also not a pay-as-u-go plan. Forgiveness is a matter of faith.

"Since you did not get your salvation by what you did, you can not lose it by what you do.
Repentance is a necessary result of the saving work of God, not the cause of salvation. If repentance brought salvation, then salvation is by works; or rather, the ceasing of bad works. That isn't how it works. God grants repentance to the Christian (2 Tim. 2:25). The Christian then turns from his sin; that is, he stops sinning. He is able to repent because he is saved, not to get saved.
Suicide is, in effect, self-murder. The unfortunate thing about it is that the one who commits it cannot repent of it. The damage is permanently done. We can see in the Bible that murderers have been redeemed (Moses, David, etc.), but they had opportunities to confess their sins and repent. With suicide, the person does not. But that does not mean the person is lost. Jesus bore all that person's sins, including suicide. If Jesus bore that person's sins on the cross 2000 years ago, and if suicide was not covered, then the Christian was never saved in the first place and the one sin of suicide is able to undo the entire work of the cross of Christ. This cannot be. Jesus either saves completely or he does not." - Matt slick
(Emphasis added)

The only unforgiveable sin is the Sin against the holy spirit. Mt 12.22-32

woah~I just got pwned~XP
great answer~

[The Theban Legion]

From the aspect that religions are nothing more than philosophies then the adopting of the idea that sucide is a negative thing is only there to perpetuate a better way of living. If your dead you cant live a better life and you cant help society better itself by spreading the word of that philosophy.

[The Theban Legion]

Just as an fyi I believe in God and am a Christian. I was just using that as an arguement.

[Anime Daisuki]

Well its a sin in every religion.

In Buddhism, its not explained in the same way but a person who commits suicide will not be able to escape the cycle of rebirths which is the same thing as being condemned to suffering, since life = suffering.

[Dragon Heirs]

Apr 29, 2010 13:09:50 GMT -5 Estayland said:

Suicide is the only crime that's punishable if attempted but not committed.

Ever heard of attempted murder? Or possession with intent to sell?

Suicide for the chronically ill and suffering should be legal via physician assisted suicide. Suicide for the chronically depressed teenager/elderly person/whomever should not, obviously. That's what I think anyways... Kevorkian got it right.

[New Augustgrad]

The act of suicide is the act of self murder. It not only requires motive, but it also requires conviction to carry out the act. Where this begins to get hazy is what DH referred to as physician assisited suicide. I'll offer an analogy. If an animal is suffering to the point to where they're beyond clincal help and it's only just a matter of time before they die, putting them to sleep is considered the humanitarian thing to do. No animal should have to suffer. My feeling is exactly the same towards people. In the case where a patient is chronically ill and suffering beyond clincal help, I believe it's equally humanitarian to not let them suffer. However, this decision shouldn't be up to the physician it should be left up to the family, just as the decision to put an animal to sleep should be the owner's decision and not the physician's.

[Bad Infinitum]

May 13, 2010 13:51:41 GMT -5 Dragon Heirs said:

Apr 29, 2010 13:09:50 GMT -5 Estayland said:

Suicide is the only crime that's punishable if attempted but not committed.

Ever heard of attempted murder? Or possession with intent to sell?

Yes, but you can also be punished for actually committing murder or selling drugs. You can't be punished by law for following through with suicide, though.