Arizona and SB 1070

[Klington]

I'm an Arizonian and I was just wondering what you fellars think about the new immigration bill that was passed. Thoughts?

[Estayland]

glad someone is standing up

[Klington]

May 6, 2010 12:53:54 GMT -5 Estayland said:

glad someone is standing up

This is the debate forum, please, elaborate

[Anime Daisuki]

I think they are targetting the wrong people.

Should put more attention on terrorists and all those religious zealots in the country, rather than Hispanic people here to make a decent living.

[Grub]

*Illegal* aliens are a huge drain on Arizona. This law only allows police to figure out someone is here legally once they see the people doing something wrong. Police can't just walk up to someone and ask for their papers like a lot of people think.

The Federal gov't is not doing their job of enforcing the borders and is costs the people of AZ millions of dollars each year. It also costs lives by the crime some illegals bring over here. AZ is just trying to protect themselves and I fully support them.

With people making a decent living, I totally understand that, but we have immigration laws for a reason. A lot of people follow those laws each year. Why should we reward the people that break our laws and jump ahead of the line in front of others who are doing the right thing and living by the guidelines of the law?

BTW, I am totally for legal immigration. My ancestors weren't born in the US.

[Bad Infinitum]

May 6, 2010 14:43:48 GMT -5 Grub said:

My ancestors weren't born in the US.

No one's were

That said, Grub brings up a good point. There are perfectly obtainable means of legally gaining United States citizenship. Digging a tunnel under the border is not one of them.

[Cerb]

I gained my US citizenship last year. I moved here in 1999 legally, completed all of the forms. I paid my dues. Took the pledge and swore my allegiance.

I can not stand the thought of people who have broken the law being rewarded with a gift that so many people work hard to obtain.

I respect Arizona for enacting a law that covers the gap left by the federal shortfall in border control.

I find several things about this situation that annoys me:
I believe Phoenix is a "sanctuary city". The police are (or were) advised to ignore illegal immigrants and decline to assist federal forces who try to act against illegal’s (if someone can verify that, I'd love it).
Each year the federal government puts money into a fund just to pay for illegal immigrant’s medical care.
And finally...
The concept that farmers are worried about the impact on their cheap labor...

But they aren't worried about:
Employing people who have broken the law.
Aren't paying tax.
Aren't paying Soc. Sec.
Employing illegals when there is an unemployment rate of 11%...


Do I want people to be victimized for being South American? No. Is it a fact that 75% of illegal immigrants are South American? Yes.


What I believe -should- happen.
If people can not recruit workers from our existing work force to do the job, then they should legally be able to bring people here on work visas who will do the work. Then those same workers should have the right to apply to stay, paying the same dues as everyone else.

If they don't want to pay and follow the basic laws of the land, then don't let the border crossing hit them in the butt on the way out.


It's a very simple situation IMO.
If you break the laws, expect consequences. Don't expect instant forgiveness and receive the biggest gift a country has to offer - it's citizenship.


Heh. Sorry. ranted a bit.

[Estayland]

May 6, 2010 15:03:48 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

May 6, 2010 14:43:48 GMT -5 Grub said:

My ancestors weren't born in the US.

No one's were

Native Americans?

Cerb,

I can't imagine the costs of time, money, and paperwork you had to do to get into this country and be a citizen. Thank you though for coming. Do you realize you have a 10X greater chance of being a millionaire than I do? That's right... legal immigrants are 10X more likely to be millionaires than native-born citizens.

Here in Houston, we have Mexican gangs, here illegally, that bring in drugs and violence. They smuggle others here (human trafficking?).

An example I hear often: If I go steal money from a bank, why can't I call it "undocumented withdrawl"? The root is... they are breaking the law. Punish them as such.

[Anime Daisuki]

May 6, 2010 16:33:05 GMT -5 Estayland said:

May 6, 2010 15:03:48 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

No one's were

Native Americans?

Hispanics are descendants of the Mayans, etc, who are native to the region, aren't they?

Wasn't California and the other States annexed from Mexico not too long ago?

[Bad Infinitum]

Well, Native Americans belong here. But since there's, like, twelve of them total, they're quite a bit in the minority. And yes, California, New Mexico, and most of the rest of the southwest were "annexed" as spoils of the Mexican-American war in the mid-1800's.

[Guy]

California, Nevada, Utah, most of Arizona, and parts of New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming were annexed in 1848 following the Mexican-American War. The Southern part of Arizona was purchased by the U.S. in 1854 as part of the Gadsden Purchase.

[Klington]

WOOOO GADSEN PURCHASE!

[Enigmatic]

This sounds like most of the history classes I taught last week. Awesome.

[Guy]

Well, although I knew the basics, I hope it doesn't surprise you it was copy-pasted

[Bad Infinitum]

Heh, I was wondering why an Australian had such intimate knowledge of US history

[The Theban Legion]

"Hispanics are descendants of the Mayans, etc, who are native to the region, aren't they?

Wasn't California and the other States annexed from Mexico not too long ago?" - Anime Daisuki

Mayans would fall under the category of Native American's. Central America is still America just not he United States of America and they are also decendents of Spanish Europeans so they don't completly fit the description.

[djsvain]

The law still states that they police have to have a lawful reason to detain you to ask for your papers, but before they couldn't specifically ask for proof or right to be in the country. Now they can, so lawful reason is anything, speeding ticket, being in a car with a person that gets a speeding ticket, party that gets too loud, whatever. Here is the truth of it though. The word Illegal is the important part of Illegal immigrant. All of our ancestors came here from other countries, mine are all Irish. For those that Immigrate here now, cerb, I applaud you, most native born Americans can't pass that test you took to become a citizen. I agree with the law in Arizona, and hope it is a raging success.

[Cerb]

So, this is somewhat off track. My next door neighbour is of cuban extraction. He was in Cuba when it fell to Fidel Castro.

His family had some influence and his father was able to buy their way out of Cuba via Spain.

They had to pay the government 4000 dollars (US) in 71, and for that they were first told they had to pay a penalty for wanting to leave the homeland. His father, Aunt, and Uncle spent 5 years in a concentration camp before being allowed to leave.


He see/s the same situation happening here. First the youth are conditioned to hate their nation. The media works by undermining people's in their beliefs. The next minute you will have revolution and people knocking on your door because you might have unrationed meat in the house.

It sounds extreme, but the situation is rapidly becoming extreme. Homeland Security? Too little, too late.

We have people in positions of authority, educating our children, who teach them that people who support the constitution are frothing at the mouth madmen, and that it's wrong to be proud of the US.

Is that a blanket statement? Yes. Are all educators doing this? No. Do I think it's the majority? Yes.


I'm going to paste in a few links here which you may want to watch. Scary stuff.

Extremism always is.

This La Raza rally took place at UCLA.



Education Rally in San Diego

!


Maybe they are right. Maybe once America did seize those lands. Of course, Spain seized them first, but we can forget about that.

Oh, and here's a nice ex-KGB dude describing the situation (that relates the same thing my cuban friend related to me).



Yes, I know, you can find equally extreme stuff from other groups. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that homeland security needs to start closer to home, not just at the borders.

[Dragon Heirs]

I'd just like to point out that the 'illegals bring crime' argument is completely groundless. Violent crime in Arizona is at its lowest since 1971, and property crime is at its lowest since 1966. These figures are from the Justice Department.

I don't agree with the law in the slightest... it is overreaching and inherently wrong in my opinion.


Edit: Also Cerb I think the links you posted are far from a majority view, and like you said there are equally extreme voices for the opposition position. This is no proof of anything special.

"We have people in positions of authority, educating our children, who teach them that people who support the constitution are frothing at the mouth madmen, and that it's wrong to be proud of the US.

Is that a blanket statement? Yes. Are all educators doing this? No. Do I think it's the majority? Yes."

I also don't agree with this at all. That the majority of teachers teach with a political agenda, much less the extreme one you describe, is ridiculous. I've never had a teacher profess their political views in class.

[New Augustgrad]

I'm rather pleased with the piece of legislation passed by Gov. Brewer. I understand the prevailing fear of racial profiling that seems to be at the core of the resentment. While I think it is a possible outcome, I don't think it's a likely outcome, but then again I am more inclined to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt that it will fulfill its purpose to protect and serve than it seems people in my age bracket typically are (I'm 24 btw). There are two core reasons why I am in support of this legislation:

1) I have known people whom I consider among my friends, one of them was a past employer, who have immigrated to this country legally and have sworn their allegiance to it. They are some of the finest examples of people I've known. All of them have worked hard to achieve citizenship, and leaving the illegal immigration situation as it is is like giving the millions of Americans who worked to obtain their citizenship the legal way a perpetual slap-in-the-face.

2) I am sure there are immigrants staying here illegally who love this country and have dreams of calling America their home. Great! By all means come on down! But please... obtain citizenship the LEGAL way. Take it from someone who also has dreams they're chasing, if you want it bad enough, doing whatever is required of you to realize your dream is never too much to ask. However, there are also immigrants here illegally who have no intention of staying. They're here to work for a few years, make some money, and then go back to their native country to live off of the profits they've made here. In my opinion, this is inherently wrong. I believe that if we defend illegal immigration, these are the people we're protecting. I'm sorry, but I cannot bring myself to justify robbing Peter without paying Paul.

If this makes me a radical, then I guess I'll be checking into the Looneybin Inn.

[Cerb]

My Cuban (and my) opinion precisely. I spent around 2 grand becoming a citizen of the US. His dad (in the early seventies, 71 I think) spent eight grand, 5 years in a concentration camp, and 3 years in spain to realise the American dream.

He could have come here illegally, but doing it right and being proud of being a citizen of the US was more important to him.

I acknowledge everyone's experience and if some found their teachers to be unbiased, I applaud it.

My experience (and of course that which I base my opinion) is different.

I'll state this. My step daughter was homeschooled for a large part of her life. She went into the public education system late. Within a year she had lost her faith and her respect for being an American.

She now states that she is "ashamed" to be a an American.

She admits that her professor at college is a fanatic socialist.
My son felt that he was poisoned by high school tutors and they also attempted to destroy his faith.

So, am I biased? Yes. I admit it. Do I make a blanket allegation based on my limited experience? Yes.
I've met several teachers over the years. Some are liberal. Some are flat out socialists. None have been conservative. Maybe I've just not met the conservative ones. They might be out there. The ones who can teach without giving their own opinions. I want them to be out there.

As a "legal" immigrant, it's a slap in the face to me to see what I worked for given to people who broke the law.

[Estayland]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but can you technically be an illegal from Cuba? I thought the Coast Guard will turn you away, but once you set foot on land, you can stay.

[Cerb]

I dunno - I don't know exact dates on the year he got out or when he started the process.

I guess the point is here, that his dad crawled over hot coals to ensure he was legal.

He didn't sneak over the border and scream "you need to give me my dues capitalist pig!"

I do have another suggestion...

How about the Mexican government fix their own country, so it isn't quite so crappy around our borders?

If we take the "we've been here before Columbus" argument, then surely they have a head start over a nation that's not even 300 years old?

I grant you, as an individual, it has to suck sitting across a border in dirt looking at the high rise buildings and cars... but again, who's to blame? Americans for getting a bigger slice of the pie? They didn't steal the pie, they figured out how to get a big piece.

[Dragon Heirs]

So it's not just that teachers are teaching with political agendas, but what those political agendas are and that you disagree with them? Alright then, I'll decline since there's nothing that can be changed about that.

This bill is not a fix to the immigration woes of Arizona, or any other state that might adopt it for that matter. It is just a "look what we can do" tantrum, really, and one that is inherently wrong. Time would be better spent on more productive avenues of change.

[New Augustgrad]

May 13, 2010 0:54:20 GMT -5 Dragon Heirs said:

This bill is not a fix to the immigration woes of Arizona, or any other state that might adopt it for that matter. It is just a "look what we can do" tantrum, really, and one that is inherently wrong. Time would be better spent on more productive avenues of change.

I have a hard time believing that.

www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2009/02/13/kidnapping-capital-of-the-usa-phoenix-arizona/

I encourage those who read that to read the full article, which is actually an ABC.com story.

[Dragon Heirs]

May 13, 2010 7:16:33 GMT -5 New Augustgrad said:

May 13, 2010 0:54:20 GMT -5 Dragon Heirs said:

This bill is not a fix to the immigration woes of Arizona, or any other state that might adopt it for that matter. It is just a "look what we can do" tantrum, really, and one that is inherently wrong. Time would be better spent on more productive avenues of change.

I have a hard time believing that.

www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2009/02/13/kidnapping-capital-of-the-usa-phoenix-arizona/

I encourage those who read that to read the full article, which is actually an ABC.com story.

Here you go:

blogs.ajc.com/cynthia-tucker/2010/05/13/despite-its-racial-profiling-americans-support-arizona-law/?cxntfid=blogs_cynthia_tucker

mediamatters.org/research/201004290029

The second one is especially informative.

[Estayland]

HAHA he's using liberal blogs as source material. #fail

[Dragon Heirs]

May 13, 2010 10:21:39 GMT -5 Estayland said:

HAHA he's using liberal blogs as source material. #fail

How about you prove the data and information given wrong rather than simply dismissing it? Is the Bureau of Justice wrong or are they too liberal for you too?

What I posted is mostly just citing news sources, the Bureau of Justice, and a libertarian think tank. Again, is their information erroneous?

[Estayland]

I find it funny that the same people that say Fox News isn't real news are the same ones that'll quote liberal blogs (not saying you did, but you get what Im saying). Blogs are not primary source material.... whether it's political or not.

The facts are: you cannot be asked your citizenship status unless you get stopped for breaking another law. You're not going to be arrested for "looking Mexican." This is an ANTI ILLEGAL bill, not ANTI IMMIGRANT. And anyone who quits buying Arizona tea because of it is an idiot.

[Anime Daisuki]

May 12, 2010 18:15:31 GMT -5 Dragon Heirs said:

I'd just like to point out that the 'illegals bring crime' argument is completely groundless. Violent crime in Arizona is at its lowest since 1971, and property crime is at its lowest since 1966. These figures are from the Justice Department.
....

I agree with you. The problem with crime has less to do with law enforcement than it has to do with the courts and the government. The police are doing an excellent job catching the crooks, its the courts that failed to prosecute criminals and the states that failed to keep them imprisoned.