WA=citizenship?

[iswa]

This is just stupid... Some nations don't want to be in the WA because they don't like the resolutions the WA passes. But you should still let them vote if they are devoted members. It is also stupid that to be involved with the TITO you need to have been a registered forumite for a week. Also, the founder is not in the WA, yet they are a devoted member, they RUN the TITO. But they don't get a vote. You can even still be involved with the TITO when you are not a WA member. You can look for raided regions to liberate, you can work on re-creating regions once they have been captured back. Ect. Ect. We don't need to limit it to JUST WA members, even on the map you need to be in the WA, it is a bit stupid. You are still a nation even if you are not in the WA. You can still be a great contribution reguardless. So why limit them. Also some people just don't like giving away there email to every person on earth. They think they will get spammed (which is often the case). Just think about it for a second...

[Ananke II]

In 10ki citizenship is tied to WA membership because it makes it easier for us to make sure that people only have one vote on things in 10ki.

E.i. if we allowed non-WA members to vote in elections and on WA resolutions it'd be easier to rig the vote.

In regard to TITO membership you need to be a WA member to defend. Letting non-WA members in would open up the door to lots of invader spies. It is however quite possible for non-WA members to help out in regards to defending. We've got a public invasion spotting thread and people are always welcome to pm Grub or one of the TO's if they stumble across interesting intelligence.

The WA membership requirement to get a spot on the map is to make sure people who request it are going to stay around 10ki for a bit, so Grub doesn't end up doing redundant additions to the map, when too many people CTE/leave the region right after they ask for a map spot.

Not wanting to put your nation in the WA is fine. That's why some of us have puppet WA nations though. That way we can vote in elections/WA polls, without ruining the stats on our main nations.

Edit: The nation Grub is not WA, no, but he's got a WA nation, which he use to defend with. Whenever we've got no missions he moves it back to 10ki like the rest of our TITO people.

Most bigger regions only give voting rights to WA members btw, so 10ki is no different than the rest in this regard.

Most things in 10ki is still open to non-WA members though. We love to have people join us, no matter whether they're WA members or not. But WA membership does give you a bit more influence in the region.

[Jusyr]

I have a WA nation; it's in a different region. How come I can't get this shiny citizenship that Grub has?

[Ananke II]

Because you don't have it in 10ki. Grub's nation is in the region.

Btw. I totally had to wait longer than a week to join TITO, because I needed 3 forum posts on different days before Grub would let me in. I was like, "hey, I'm a wellknown defender. Can't you just let me in already?" Nope, I had to do my 3 spam posts like everyone else.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 11:34:54 GMT -5 Ananke II said:

Because you don't have it in 10ki. Grub's nation is in the region.

I'm sorry, but that's known as discrimination.

I have a WA nation, but it's in a different region. As a result, I don't get all the rights as someone with a WA nation in this region?

Absolute f**king shrubbery.

[Ananke II]

Feel free to take it up with Grub. That's how things work in most of Nationstates though, so I don't see why it'd be a problem. If you go to any other big region they'll also ask you to move WA membership to your nation there before they let you vote in elections.

Otherwise someone could going around and vote for delegate and other government officials in lots of regions, without actually having any ties to some of them. We'd open ourselves up to being manipulated by any raider region in NS who felt like having their people move a puppet into 10ki to rig elections.

I think it's great that we have people who's active here without being in the WA. I've been active in other regions as well, where I wasn't a WA member. I never felt like being less a part of those regions just because I didn't have all the voting rights and such that WA members had, since it was my decision to keep my WA nation somewhere else.

[Cerb]

Grub and the council have set the rules, and as the founder you can't compare Grub with other members. As Ananke has stated Grub has a WA region which he uses to defend with. If he didn't use the puppet then his defending actions could potentially cause the region to become founderless.

So, while the nation Grub may not be a WA, he has a WA nation which is equally commited to 10KI.

I think we would want an individual to be fully commited to the 10KI way of life and dual citizenship could cause conflicts.

I support the stand on citizenship and believe the mission and way of life at 10KI is preserved by this law.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 11:47:09 GMT -5 Ananke II said:

Feel free to take it up with Grub. That's how things work in most of Nationstates though, so I don't see why it'd be a problem. If you go to any other big region they'll also ask you to move WA membership to your nation there before they let you vote in elections.

Otherwise someone could going around and vote for delegate and other government officials in lots of regions, without actually having any ties to some of them. We'd open ourselves up to being manipulated by any raider region in NS who felt like having their people move a puppet into 10ki to rig elections.

I think it's great that we have people who's active here without being in the WA. I've been active in other regions as well, where I wasn't a WA member. I never felt like being less a part of those regions just because I didn't have all the voting rights and such that WA members had, since it was my decision to keep my WA nation somewhere else.

Yes, but I do feel left out when I don't have all the benefits of my citizenship that I damn well deserve. It's discrimination, plain and simple; whatever way you look at it, that's what it is.

@ Cerb: Since freedom of speech is a right of the constitution (since I'm not a full citizen, I'm not sure if I have those rights anyways), I can compare Grub to Michael Jackson, or myself to Marilyn Manson, if I wanted to.

[Ananke II]

May 30, 2010 11:58:48 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

Yes, but I do feel left out when I don't have all the benefits of my citizenship that I d**n well deserve. It's discrimination, plain and simple; whatever way you look at it, that's what it is.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think citizenship requirements in 10ki is something which has a big chance at getting changed though. But having a discussion about it might turn out interesting.

I'll say though that the reason I support WA membership being tied to voting rights is the simple fact that I've been involved in a feeder which tried out giving voting rights to everyone. After seeing how that got abused I think it's fine that there's some way to make sure that people only get 1 vote. In Nationstates the easiest way to do this is to make sure everyone voting has WA membership.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 12:04:53 GMT -5 Ananke II said:

May 30, 2010 11:58:48 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

Yes, but I do feel left out when I don't have all the benefits of my citizenship that I d**n well deserve. It's discrimination, plain and simple; whatever way you look at it, that's what it is.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think citizenship requirements is something which has a big chance at getting changed though. But having a discussion aboit it is fine imo.

I'll say though that the reason I support WA membership being tied to voting rights is the simple fact that I've been involved in feeder which tried out giving voting rights to everyone. After seeing how that got abused I think it's fine that there's some way to make sure that people only get 1 vote. In Nationstates the easiest way to do this is to make sure everyone voting has WA membership.

How about this- non WA members get masked so that they can't view WA resolution debate and discussion (MAKE A NEW FORUM.), yet still grant the other rights? I'd be content with that.

[Ananke II]

What rights exactly is it you want? I'm not sure what you include in 'other rights'. It's been a while since I read the constitution, but I don't remember WA members having that many more rights than non-WA members.

[Cerb]

I would state (and I'm open for correction) that constitutional law grants citizens and non citizens the same rights, except any rights which are specifically reserved for citizens (like the vote).

That is how a constitution typically works.

[Grub]

Hi everyone,

Our rules are quite clear about citizenship because we want nations to have their main WA nation in the 10000 Islands. You are free to have a WA nation elsewhere, but then by doing that you are saying that you are not 100% committed in NS to the 10000 Islands. That is fine, but we want your nation to be in the WA and have it here in the Islands.

With TITO, we have those rules for several reasons, namely security & to make sure new nations are really sure that they want to stay here. Also, like Ananke said, I am in the WA and my WA nation is here in the 10000 Islands.

Overall, we have our rules for a reason and the reasons for these rules are time tested and have proven successful. For those of you that disagree, I hear what you are saying, but our rules will not be changing.

Grub
Founder - 10000 Islands/TITO

[Takaram]

After looking over the Constitution, the only difference I could find between a citizen and non-citizen is that citizens are allowed to vote for Senators, Delegate, and on WA issues. Delegate may only go to citizens, as required by NS mechanics, who are members of TITO, for security reasons. Grub qualifies as a citizen because he is the founder, but more importantly because of his WA nation, which is also in TITO. This is for regional security purposes, so that Grub may keep his main in 10000 Islands to ban anyone entering the region who should not be. The main reason that only WA nations are allowed to vote for Senator is because the WA is the best way we have to ensure that no one votes more than once. And as for voting on WA issues, only WA nations are affected by the issues, thus they should be the only ones getting a say in how the region stands, unless the Delegate is given free reign.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 13:10:01 GMT -5 Takaram said:

After looking over the Constitution, the only difference I could find between a citizen and non-citizen is that citizens are allowed to vote for Senators, Delegate, and on WA issues. Delegate may only go to citizens, as required by NS mechanics, who are members of TITO, for security reasons. Grub qualifies as a citizen because he is the founder, but more importantly because of his WA nation, which is also in TITO. This is for regional security purposes, so that Grub may keep his main in 10000 Islands to ban anyone entering the region who should not be. The main reason that only WA nations are allowed to vote for Senator is because the WA is the best way we have to ensure that no one votes more than once. And as for voting on WA issues, only WA nations are affected by the issues, thus they should be the only ones getting a say in how the region stands, unless the Delegate is given free reign.

So non-WA citizens aren't even allowed to vote for Senators?

My apologies, but I'm calling major shrubbery right here.

[iswa]

Okay, I get the bit about Grub. I KNOW that you are only allowed one WA nation. But could we not change it to having a certain number of posts. Or 1000 ? Just an idea.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 13:20:35 GMT -5 @iswa said:

Okay, I get the bit about Grub. I KNOW that you are only allowed one WA nation. But could we not change it to having a certain number of posts. Or 1000 ? Just an idea.

Grub made it clear that rules aren't changing.

So we're screwed for our cause.

[Takaram]

May 30, 2010 13:17:51 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

May 30, 2010 13:10:01 GMT -5 Takaram said:

After looking over the Constitution, the only difference I could find between a citizen and non-citizen is that citizens are allowed to vote for Senators, Delegate, and on WA issues. Delegate may only go to citizens, as required by NS mechanics, who are members of TITO, for security reasons. Grub qualifies as a citizen because he is the founder, but more importantly because of his WA nation, which is also in TITO. This is for regional security purposes, so that Grub may keep his main in 10000 Islands to ban anyone entering the region who should not be. The main reason that only WA nations are allowed to vote for Senator is because the WA is the best way we have to ensure that no one votes more than once. And as for voting on WA issues, only WA nations are affected by the issues, thus they should be the only ones getting a say in how the region stands, unless the Delegate is given free reign.

So non-WA citizens aren't even allowed to vote for Senators?

My apologies, but I'm calling major shrubbery right here.

Nope. If non-WA were allowed to vote for Senators, what would stop me from creating a dozen puppets, moving them into XKI, and voting myself into office?

[Jusyr]

You can only have one account on the board.

[Takaram]

May 30, 2010 13:35:00 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

You can only have one account on the board.

I could quite easily have them all act anonymously. Since we know when each election is about to come up, I could create the puppets over a period of time, moving them in slowly, and having them all vote once I come up for election.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 13:37:34 GMT -5 Takaram said:

May 30, 2010 13:35:00 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

You can only have one account on the board.

I could quite easily have them all act anonymously. Since we know when each election is about to come up, I could create the puppets over a period of time, moving them in slowly, and having them all vote once I come up for election.

You're using this as a method to discriminate against people. Stop shrubberyting newcomers, please.

I see your point. However, there is an IP address look-up site that can tell you whether or not the IP address is a proxy address. So...

[Takaram]

May 30, 2010 13:44:23 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

May 30, 2010 13:37:34 GMT -5 Takaram said:

I could quite easily have them all act anonymously. Since we know when each election is about to come up, I could create the puppets over a period of time, moving them in slowly, and having them all vote once I come up for election.

You're using this as a method to discriminate against people. Stop shrubberyting newcomers, please.

I see your point. However, there is an IP address look-up site that can tell you whether or not the IP address is a proxy address. So...

I am doing no such thing. I am merely providing an explanation for why these rules are in place. Newcomers are more then welcome to come to XKI. It's how we've grown to such a large size. If you want to participate in elections, just bring your WA nation to XKI. It's not a complicated solution.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 13:52:02 GMT -5 Takaram said:

May 30, 2010 13:44:23 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

You're using this as a method to discriminate against people. Stop shrubberyting newcomers, please.

I see your point. However, there is an IP address look-up site that can tell you whether or not the IP address is a proxy address. So...

I am doing no such thing. I am merely providing an explanation for why these rules are in place. Newcomers are more then welcome to come to XKI. It's how we've grown to such a large size. If you want to participate in elections, just bring your WA nation to XKI. It's not a complicated solution.

It is if that nation is crucial to the region. It's not a very big region... yet.

[Ananke II]

May 30, 2010 13:44:23 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

I see your point. However, there is an IP address look-up site that can tell you whether or not the IP address is a proxy address. So...

You'd be amazed at how good some people are at hiding their real IP adresses in Nationstates. I've played with some of the best and it's definitely possible to make several forum accounts and convince people it's different people. I've seen it done.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 13:54:38 GMT -5 Ananke II said:

May 30, 2010 13:44:23 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

I see your point. However, there is an IP address look-up site that can tell you whether or not the IP address is a proxy address. So...

You'd be amazed at how good some people are at hiding their real IP adresses in Nationstates. I've played with some of the best and it's definitely possible to make several forum accounts and convince people it's different people. I've seen it done.

As have I. It's called putting different people on different forums, or using multiple proxies. I've seen my brother do it, and now Europeia thinks I'm an infamous Italian troll female that he invented.

[Enigmatic]

Have any of you read Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein? It's really a great read. I bring it up not to endorse it as a piece of literature, but to make a point. In the book humanity is governed by an organization called the Terran Federation. To vote or hold office in the Federation, an individual had to serve at least two years in the military. The idea behind this being that voting is the greatest responsibility an individual can posses and to prove that they are capable of handling such a responsibility, they must be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice (death) in service to the country.

10000 Islands works in a similar manner. We don't require service in the military, but we do require that a citizen be a member of the World Assembly. By doing this we, as has been mentioned, enact securities against voter fraud and enemy infiltration. Furthermore, and more in line with my illustration, we get a sense of who is truly committed to the region. If you have your WA nation elsewhere it implies, if not outright states, that you have interests and ties in that other region. When it comes to voting we(the region) want to make sure to the best of our ability that voters have majority stake in this region.

Now, if you want to keep a non-WA nation here and your WA nation somewhere else, that's fine. In the book, not everyone chose to serve in the military so not everyone was given the vote. These people were called civilians. The same holds true here. If you choose not to join the WA then that means you cannot vote or hold office here. However, there is no other difference between a WA Islander and a Non-WA Islander besides than the color of your name. Civilians had every right and privilege of a citizen except the vote because they had not done all that was necessary to earn it. A Non-WA Islander may participate in our contests and discussions; they may engage in roleplay; they may make hang out all day in Taco Island, but they cannot vote because they have not met the requirements.

You may call it discriminatory to deny suffrage to Non-WA Islanders if you wish, but these are the laws that have served this region well for years. It's not a fullproof method for preventing spies and the like, but it is the best safeguard we have and it is the greatest witness I know of a nations commitment to this region. Well, that and recruiting. ;D

[Cerb]

May 30, 2010 13:44:23 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

You're using this as a method to discriminate against people. Stop shrubberyting newcomers, please.

I don't think making this type of statement is particularly fair. The whole point of this thread is to discover other people's opinions.
The freedom to debate means that we can agree to disagree and each person has the right to make their point. They should be free to do so without being reproached.

[Jusyr]

May 30, 2010 14:28:31 GMT -5 Cerb said:

May 30, 2010 13:44:23 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

You're using this as a method to discriminate against people. Stop shrubberyting newcomers, please.

I don't think making this type of statement is particularly fair. The whole point of this thread is to discover other people's opinions.
The freedom to debate means that we can agree to disagree and each person has the right to make their point. They should be free to do so without being reproached.

I understand that. But the statement was unfounded, and so I had every right to reproach it.

[Takaram]

May 30, 2010 14:39:03 GMT -5 Jusyr said:

May 30, 2010 14:28:31 GMT -5 Cerb said:

I don't think making this type of statement is particularly fair. The whole point of this thread is to discover other people's opinions.
The freedom to debate means that we can agree to disagree and each person has the right to make their point. They should be free to do so without being reproached.

I understand that. But the statement was unfounded, and so I had every right to reproach it.

It was far from unfounded, it's a legitimate concern. XKI is a high profile region, and we have to be concerned about possible infiltration. Allowing only WA nations to be citizens is the best way we have of preventing voter fraud, and is also, as several people have said already, a good way of determining dedication to the region.

[iswa]

No hope? Aww... That really stinks. Ow, well