The worst modern politicians in your opinion.

[Pompadoodle]

Its interesting that cerb has mentioned Hugo Chavez. While Chavez doesn't measure up to the likes of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot, he would be a major contender for the title of worst contemporary politician.

Venezuela should be a wealthy country- its got natural resources aplenty and a fairly well educated population. But Chavez has other ideas- hes doing his best to turn the place into the Zimbabwe of South America. Kind of a Mugabe wannabe then.

[Anime Daisuki]

Aug 6, 2010 21:06:19 GMT -5 Sheynat said:

No great fan of Palin, but I really don't think you're going to beat Mugabe on this one.

Most African politicians are the same. They are either corrupt, inept, dictatorial, or all of the above.

You cannot judge their 'politics' and politicians the same way. It's a whole different world out there. Can't use the same yardstick.

[jennifergovns]

Jaros³aw Kaczyñski is one of the worst politicians in Poland (and Europe). PiS is fanatic, autocratic polish party. If anyone may have heard about the Cross case in Warsaw?

[Pompadoodle]

Aug 13, 2010 15:51:35 GMT -5 @jennifergovns said:

Jaros³aw Kaczyñski is one of the worst politicians in Poland (and Europe). PiS is fanatic, autocratic polish party. If anyone may have heard about the Cross case in Warsaw?

Cross case? No, I haven't heard of it. But you've got me interested. Tell us about it.

[Pipotiazine]

It's an important prinicple, to separate church from state. (Mind you, Iraq was a secular society under Saddam.) We had a similar debate in England, over antidisestablishmentarianism. (I'm sorry, but I just had to use antidisestablishmentarianism where I had the chance.)
The fate of Poland has been the subject of much of the history I was taught, through most of the periods about which I was taught (1800s onward). We used to be allowed to wear Solidarity pins at school, in the 80's, believe it or not. I don't know what you think about that!

[jennifergovns]

I will try to write concisely. After a plane crash in Smolensk and after the death of the Polish President Lech Kaczyñski (brother of Jaros³aw), his wife and other 94 people (everybody belonged to elite of state and military and crew of plane) to commemorate the death of the Polish head of state supporters of PiS party along with scouts put a huge wooden cross next to the Presidential palace. Political supporters of PiS pray there from April until now. They argue that this disaster was a Russian attack and the government of PO (a hostile party to PiS) hides this fact and even participated in this "attack"! When the new president from PO announced the cross will be moved to the church, "Defender of the Cross" began to occupy the square next to palace, demanding a monument, statue in honor of Lech Kaczynski, not the "unworthy" table. Until cross will not be replaced by a monument, they will defend it before the transfer. Nevertheless that there is a table commemorating the tragedy, cross in their opinion must stand, because Poland is catholic country and Jaros³aw have to avenge the death of his brother beating PO and bring victory to the "catholic" and "patriotic" PiS. Currently in front of the cross demonstrations of supporters (50) and opposers (5000) are still. Cross supporters prevented the solemn transfer, screaming, yelling and crying. A scuffle broke out.
PS: Sorry for any errors in the text.

[Pipotiazine]

I never know where I stand on this. I tend to feel you should let extremists speak. Usually, they finish themselves off. We have a guy, Griffin, he talks stuff like this, about plots and schemes and nationalism. Fortunately, he is marginalized. If he were close to Government though, I accept the case is different, I'd likely be out on the streets with my sleeves up.

[jennifergovns]

Aug 13, 2010 16:32:56 GMT -5 Pipotiazine said:

I never know where I stand on this. I tend to feel you should let extremists speak. Usually, they finish themselves off. We have a guy, Griffin, he talks stuff like this, about plots and schemes and nationalism. Fortunately, he is marginalized. If he were close to Government though, I accept the case is different, I'd likely be out on the streets with my sleeves up.

Yes, I agree with you. They finish themselves off.
Currently PO has 46% of support and PiS 28%.
Although the Catholic Church is itself in favor of cross transfer, these extremists do not want to give up. And Jaroslaw constantly visited them.

[Pipotiazine]

Well, I'm an extremist, I'm a hard leftist (an "Iron Fist Socialist!"). And my leaders are extremists. They fail, and we martyr them. Centreism usually prevails, in one form or another. This man, he'll fail, he isn't the politican his brother was? And they will marty him. He'll never admit his wrongs, that's for sure.

[Pompadoodle]

Thanks for the explanation JNS. Jaroslaw sounds like an unpleasant nutcase.

Every country has them. As Pipo said, we have a guy called Nick Griffin here in the UK. He's an MEP and a neo fascist, who believes in all manner of crazy stuff.

In the US, the 'tea party' movement is producing a fine crop of right-wing lunatics. Sharron Angle, for example, is a Republican candidate in Nevada who is on record as being a fluoridation conspiracy nut.

[Pipotiazine]

we should start a new thread - "european politics-now what?"

[jennifergovns]

Kaczyñski argues that the Polish government has a "murderous policy" because contributed to the crash, hiding the truth about the reasons of this. He believes that the new president was elected by a "misunderstanding", what undermines the outcome of democratic elections and and shows that he believes simply that Polish people are stupid because they didn't elect him. He further argues that if there had been no death of his brother, his brother won the election and would continue to be president. In fact, his brother had only 20% of support before death.
PS: Jaros³aw was a candidate for a new president to continue the right policy of his brother. In real, he has always been the "brain" of the PiS party and his brother was the figurehead. He probably insisted on his brother that he have to landed in Smolensk, despite terrible weather, because Lech have to presented himself well, during the anniversary of the Katyn massacre what would be a political benefit for PiS.
Lech Kaczyñski, a few days before crash, was able to fly along with Prime Minister Tusk from PO, who flew to Katyn, but he refused, he wanted to make his own show.

[Pompadoodle]

@jgns:
How much has the current economic instability fed into political extremism in Poland?

In the UK so far there has been remarkably little in the way of gains for the extreme right (basically the British National Party and its middle-class equivalent, the UK Independence Party). The British hard left is completely disorganized- they spend most of their time feuding with each other- so they're in no position to make gains anyway.

[JGNS]

Well, PO government still ensures Polish society, that everything is well with the economy, that is safely, etc.
Recently, however, in order not to increase state debt, the government raised VAT tax what is the signal that is not is so wonderful..
Well, probvably the government will not carry out controversial financial reforms until the eventual winning in the next election in 2011, because it is too risky.
For now, the Polish Government struggles with floods in Silesia.

[venencia]

Obama is a commy socialist pig

[Pompadoodle]

Thats absurd. His financial team are mainly ex-Goldman Sachs. Hardly communists.

Obama is a liberal progressive in the tradition of FDR, Kennedy, LBJ and Clinton. He's actually less left-wing than FDR. Compare the current proposals on financial reform with Glass-Segall and you'll see what I mean.

The significant change in US politics isn't on the left. The Dems are much the same as they've been since the 30s. Whats happened is that the Repubs have moved way over to the far right field. What would've once been considered to be dangerous right-wing extremism is now acceptable within the Republican Party. Look at the likes of Sharron Angle, Ron Paul, Rand Paul.

[Coltonians]

while I agree that the Democrats haven't changed much, the Republicans have not gone too far right. Can you give me some examples, on how they have, Pomp?

[Pompadoodle]

Some republicans- the sane, sensible ones imo- are much the same as they always were. But there have been 2 sets of changes:

- Since the 80s, the religious right has become increasingly influential within the party. Their programme of transforming the US into a more theocratic/ biblically based state is imo incredibly dangerous.

- Since Obama's election, there has been the Tea Party movement. The Tea Partiers are a mixed bag (pun intended), but they certainly include a lot of extemists, and the Republican leadership has been bending over backwards to accomodate them.

John McCain kinda illustrates whats happened. He used to be a very independently-minded guy. But now the change within his party has forced him to take a much more nativist stance on immigration, and to make peace with the religious right.


Its a measure of how bad things are that the John Birch Society has seemingly been admitted back into the Republican fold.

[Coltonians]

You make some good points. At the risk of sounding like Glen Beck our country was founded on many christian principles and christian men. I despise theocracies, but we should keep many of those principles in mind.

[Takaram]

Actually, America was founded mostly on Enlightenment era ideals by Enlightenment era deists, for the most part.

[Anime Daisuki]

Aug 17, 2010 5:52:27 GMT -5 Pompadoodle said:

Thats absurd. His financial team are mainly ex-Goldman Sachs. Hardly communists.

Obama is a liberal progressive in the tradition of FDR, Kennedy, LBJ and Clinton. He's actually less left-wing than FDR. Compare the current proposals on financial reform with Glass-Segall and you'll see what I mean.

The significant change in US politics isn't on the left. The Dems are much the same as they've been since the 30s. Whats happened is that the Repubs have moved way over to the far right field. What would've once been considered to be dangerous right-wing extremism is now acceptable within the Republican Party. Look at the likes of Sharron Angle, Ron Paul, Rand Paul.

Obama is hardly the crazy socialist that Fox News make him out to be. Like you said, his policies are more centrist than FDR; and I would add, more centrist than Clinton's.

Aside from your point that the GOP have moved to the right, I think... another reason for Obama being perceived as a liberal is because of who he is-- A mixed race President born from a hippy mother and a black immigrant father; who grew up in a single parent family and graduated from Harvard but went into community service helping blacks in Chicago. This personal story of his just screams liberal.

[Pipotiazine]

Socialist?, Good god, I never know who to be more offended for, Obama or my comrades. It's not the return of Sacco and Vanzetti, exactly, is it?

[Pompadoodle]

No, it certainly isn't.

As I said, his financial team are mainly Golman Sachs boys. Not exactly IWW material.

[Pipotiazine]

Pompadoodle, I sense, as Mailer said of RFK and Eugene McCarthy, if we were in the same army, we'd wear our guns under different arms

[Coltonians]

Obama is not a centralists. He is a socialist. Not only did he bailout the banks he also bailed out the motor companies. He also took over the student loan industry and healthcare. These are acts of a socialist. I am not alone in my beliefs of obama being a socialist. according to a recent poll(by James James Carville no less) 50% of Americans believe Obama is a socialist. While he is definitely not the worst morden politician, he is no where near the best.

[Pompadoodle]

I don't think that anyone is claiming that Obama is one of the best modern politicians. So far, I'd rate him as middling at best. Thats still a big improvement over Bush Jr though, who I'd rate as being at the very least the worst post-war POTUS.

Obama is not a socialist, and the fact that most Americans seem to think that he is says more about the the intelligence and political awareness of the average citizen than it does about Obama. Nationalizing parts of the auto industry as a temporary measure doth not a socialist make.

And as for the bank and insurance bailouts- they were organized in such a way as to protect the shareholders, protect the other corporate interests (e.g. debt holders), and screw the general public. This is a case of Corporate America kicking Joe Public in the teeth. With malice. Handouts to the corps, the investors and the speculators is the opposite of socialism.

[lowetania]

Hee hee. Well, this will put most of you off me I think but here we go. I have to say that I consider Nick Clegg to be among the worst of our politicians, why? Because he promised the nation PR, he persuaded people to vote for them and they did so. Then, defying common sense he sides with the Tories!! Now we are truly ConDem'd. They offer us Alternate Voting, which is WORSE than First past the post. They are about to destroy the work labour began in repairing our economy. I am NOT a labour supporter though, I am however an economist who saw the wisdom in Gordon Browns strategy for the long term and the current shower are going to damn us to a collapsing economy, with high unemployment and worse high inflation. For this I think NICK CLEGG deserves all the nasty names you can think of. He betrayed the people of Britain.

[JGNS]

I don't like Obama.