The Aldershofsean Treatise Party (Thread Closed)

[Mal]

So you can understand why some people reacted the way they did: The C09 and TITO have never been linked and always have operated independent of each other. This system has worked for over 8 years, and there is no reason it should be changed.

The whole issue of Council influence on TITO affairs aside, you've been here less than a month and already posted something (which you edited) stating that TITO isn't as effective as it could or should be.

Moreover, while I understand the XKI Constitution gives everyone the right to free speech, you can't expect those of us who have been here for a while to not react unfavorably to what you said. That would be a circular argument and thus illogical.

Most especially, I take issue with your responses to Grub, Cerb and Wordy. Grub is our founder and he has worked very hard to make this forum and our region what it is.

Cerb has earned 135 battlestars and is one of our most respected Knights.

Wordy has earned 295 battlestars, serves as our Field Commander, and is one of our most highly decorated Knights.

Both Cerb and Wordy have been awarded the Quick Reaction Force pin, a distinction that only 15 other TITO members can claim.

In sum, while I like your motivation, you haven't put in the work we've put in, so your original post came off as arrogant. So, I suggest that you let this thread die out. After you have been here a few months, have earned a few battlestars, and can point to a few accomplishments, you'll have earned the right to make suggestions and offer constructive criticism.

Until then, I suggest you do what we all did when we first got here: watch and learn and ask intelligent questions via PM or in the proper sub-forum.

[Glasgia]

Soz Mal, I'll take some of the blame for inspiring a newbie. He's gone the right way now and hopefully sees what he's done

[Aldershofsa]

Cerb has earned 135 battlestars and is one of our most respected Knights.

Wordy has earned 295 battlestars, serves as our Field Commander, and is one of our most highly decorated Knights.

Both Cerb and Wordy have been awarded the Quick Reaction Force pin, a distinction that only 15 other TITO members can claim.

All irrelevant. I take issue with what they say, not who they are.

I think you're using the phrase "circular argument" incorrectly. Circular logic is logic that assumes the conclusion is true already to support it's point that the conclusion is true. It's a cycle. I see no resemblance to what I've said.

With all due respect to all parties, I want my party to be left in peace. The forum will decide if it lives or dies based on if anyone joins. If they do; wonderful. If not, at least I tried, and I'll try again some time.

[Aldershofsa]

Apr 3, 2012 14:33:42 GMT -5 Glasgia said:

Soz Mal, I'll take some of the blame for inspiring a newbie. He's gone the right way now and hopefully sees what he's done

I'm offended by your condescension.

[Twobagger]

Some of you seem to be discarding Aldershofsa's arguments on the grounds that he has very little experience in this region. I hope my words carry slightly more weight.

I hope I don't offend you, Malecia, by responding to your post. I don't mean to single you out for criticism, it's just that your post serves as a convenient summary of much of what's in this thread.

SPOILER: Click to show

Apr 3, 2012 13:34:33 GMT -5 Mal said:

So you can understand why some people reacted the way they did: The C09 and TITO have never been linked and always have operated independent of each other. This system has worked for over 8 years, and there is no reason it should be changed.

The whole issue of Council influence on TITO affairs aside, you've been here less than a month and already posted something (which you edited) stating that TITO isn't as effective as it could or should be.

Moreover, while I understand the XKI Constitution gives everyone the right to free speech, you can't expect those of us who have been here for a while to not react unfavorably to what you said. That would be a circular argument and thus illogical.

Most especially, I take issue with your responses to Grub, Cerb and Wordy. Grub is our founder and he has worked very hard to make this forum and our region what it is.

Cerb has earned 135 battlestars and is one of our most respected Knights.

Wordy has earned 295 battlestars, serves as our Field Commander, and is one of our most highly decorated Knights.

Both Cerb and Wordy have been awarded the Quick Reaction Force pin, a distinction that only 15 other TITO members can claim.

In sum, while I like your motivation, you haven't put in the work we've put in, so your original post came off as arrogant. So, I suggest that you let this thread die out. After you have been here a few months, have earned a few battlestars, and can point to a few accomplishments, you'll have earned the right to make suggestions and offer constructive criticism.

Until then, I suggest you do what we all did when we first got here: watch and learn and ask intelligent questions via PM or in the proper sub-forum.

Although I unfortunately missed the first (unedited) version of this thread, Aldershofsa doesn't seem to be arguing that the Co9 should legislate changes to TITO policy. Instead, he suggested that his party would have served as a petition: that everyone who joined would be implicitly agreeing with the statement "I agree that TITO would be better off doing this."

Now, since I'm not on the Co9, my interpretation of the Constitution doesn't really matter (per Sect. 3.3). But if I were, I'd write that not only is this explicitly protected free speech (which it absolutely should be), it's also his duty as a citizen of this region. If any citizen has an idea that would make the region better, that citizen absolutely should work towards implementing that idea. As Malecia writes, one way to do that is by telling people privately. Another is by raising concerns publicly. This is absolutely a correct forum for people who have ideas for improving our region and want to communicate those ideas publicly. This is perhaps the point of this board: politics should be used as a tool to make our region better, not as a team sport.

Finally, I'd like to add that one of the things that makes our region among the best in the game (the best, in my opinion) is that any nation can contribute to our region, especially newer nations. Wordy became a Tactical Officer before she became a knight; she'd only been around for about 3 months at the time. Petalumadom became Minister of Education after about one month in the region. The Debate Board sprang from an idea that a newer nation - about four months old - put forward when running for election. Part of the allure of our region is the fact that any nation can come in and contribute right away, and any nation - even newer ones! - can make a huge difference for our region. While our region is great, it isn't perfect. There's always room for improvement. We shouldn't discard changes just because what we have is really good; we should try to make what we have better. And we should encourage all nations - especially newer ones - to try and make our region better.

To Aldershofsa: I wish you all the best in our region. I hope you'll continue to spend some time here, and I hope you'll keep putting forward ideas to make our region better. I also hope you'll continue to flesh out what your party is all about - right now, I'm seeing increased participation in the WA and increased freedoms in our nation. That's good, but is that it? Is there anything else your party stands for? Specifically, what sets your party apart from LUAC (link)?

You can respond here or message me privately if you'd like to talk about this, or about anything else.

[Cerb]

Actually the first post did indeed more or less state not only that the CO9 should be involved in how TITO is run, but also indicated specifically how TITO should operate.

That is why so many of us jumped on this. Note that even Grub had something to say on the subject which he wouldn't do unless he considered the issue serious.

That is what promulgated all of the responses to this thread.

Suggestions for improvement to TITO should be made in private to the Commander in Chief or the Tactical team. Attempting to influence change on TITO publically is a security violation as any invader around can get in to take a peek at these discussions.

I have no problem with the party continuing to exist based on it's current OP, but I think what Mal was trying to get at is people are going to be somewhat put off by the entire sack of posts in this thread which are going to be unappealing.

I'd recommend starting over with a new thread and having this one deleted.

[Mal]

@2b: I don't take offense. I'm mature enough to be able to handle feedback..

Aldershofsa: Maybe the accomplishments of Grub and Cerb and Wordy don't mean much to you, but they certainly mean something to those of us who know what those accomplishemtns represent.

If you don't want to show anyone respect for what they did before you got here, that's certainly your prerogative. Just don't expect people to respect your positions or your assertions.

And I used the term "circular argument" in the loosest sense. If you feel it necessary correct me, I guess that's your prerogative too.

And one last thing: the biggest reason for my reply was that Cerb is right in that this is an unsecured thread that anyone can view.

Do you really want someone who got a recruiting telegram to come and check out our region and read this?

As I said before: I think you're motivated, and I like that. And in the long run you could have a really good time here and do some serious damage (which I mean in a good way). But how about giving some rhythm to those of us who have been here for a while?

[Aldershofsa]

Apr 4, 2012 12:45:39 GMT -5 Mal said:

@2b: I don't take offense. I'm mature enough to be able to handle feedback..

Aldershofsa: Maybe the accomplishments of Grub and Cerb and Wordy don't mean much to you, but they certainly mean something to those of us who know what those accomplishemtns represent.

I respect the accomplishments, but no accomplishment means anything. I'm arguing against their words.

[/u]

If you don't want to show anyone respect for what they did before you got here, that's certainly your prerogative. Just don't expect people to respect your positions or your assertions.
I respect the accomplishments, but no accomplishment means anything. I'm arguing against their words.

And I used the term "circular argument" in the loosest sense. If you feel it necessary correct me, I guess that's your prerogative too.

So what you're saying is "if you feel the need to point out that I'm wrong when arguing against you, that's your choice?" Yea it is. Circular logic doesn't work here- loose sense or not the words mean what the words mean. [/u]

And one last thing: the biggest reason for my reply was that Cerb is right in that this is an unsecured thread that anyone can view.

Do you really want someone who got a recruiting telegram to come and check out our region and read this?
I would love them to see it. We already broadcast our game plan of defense. This is no different[/u]
As I said before: I think you're motivated, and I like that. And in the long run you could have a really good time here and do some serious damage (which I mean in a good way). But how about giving some rhythm to those of us who have been here for a while?
I appreciate the good outlook for me but let me say this- in an argument we are all equal. My points logic is all that matters- regardless of whether I've been here years or minutes. My logic is sound. [/u]

[/quote]

I didn't want to take the time to fragment the quote but the writing in bold is mine.

Edit: Underlined my things too. Should make it easier

[Mal]

So what you're saying is that no matter what, you're right and we're all wrong?

[Aldershofsa]

I never said anything close to that- and I bet you can't use a single quote to say otherwise.

[Shemiki]

Apr 4, 2012 15:36:07 GMT -5 Aldershofsa said:

Apr 4, 2012 12:45:39 GMT -5 Mal said:

@2b: I don't take offense. I'm mature enough to be able to handle feedback..

Aldershofsa: Maybe the accomplishments of Grub and Cerb and Wordy don't mean much to you, but they certainly mean something to those of us who know what those accomplishemtns represent.

I respect the accomplishments, but no accomplishment means anything. I'm arguing against their words.

[/u]

If you don't want to show anyone respect for what they did before you got here, that's certainly your prerogative. Just don't expect people to respect your positions or your assertions.
I respect the accomplishments, but no accomplishment means anything. I'm arguing against their words.

And I used the term "circular argument" in the loosest sense. If you feel it necessary correct me, I guess that's your prerogative too.

So what you're saying is "if you feel the need to point out that I'm wrong when arguing against you, that's your choice?" Yea it is. Circular logic doesn't work here- loose sense or not the words mean what the words mean. [/u]

And one last thing: the biggest reason for my reply was that Cerb is right in that this is an unsecured thread that anyone can view.

Do you really want someone who got a recruiting telegram to come and check out our region and read this?
I would love them to see it. We already broadcast our game plan of defense. This is no different[/u]
As I said before: I think you're motivated, and I like that. And in the long run you could have a really good time here and do some serious damage (which I mean in a good way). But how about giving some rhythm to those of us who have been here for a while?
I appreciate the good outlook for me but let me say this- in an argument we are all equal. My points logic is all that matters- regardless of whether I've been here years or minutes. My logic is sound. [/u]

[/quote]

How about near the end, "My points logic is all that matters- regardless of whether I've been here years or minutes. My logic is sound."

[Aldershofsa]

I'm saying my logic points to me being right. I just don't believe the people opposing me are correct. That doesn't mean I think I'm unilaterally right.

[Cerb]

I think it's time to let this go. The point has been made that many of us dislike both the content and attitude of the posts here, and Aldershofsa has clearly indicated that he does not care about our opinions.

There is nowhere the discussion can go but downhill so I strongly recommend those of us who dislike the attitude take the most sensible course and move on.

Grub can deal with anything else that he deems inappropriate.

[Aldershofsa]

I do care about every 10KI opinion. Doesn't mean I can't disagree with them.

I am clearly within my constitutional rights, if Grub were to take action he would be betraying his own region.

I will be readding "On War". I've talked to someone in a high ranking position in TITO who believes I am within my rights to do so.

[Wordy]

1. All nations, deemed to be a threat, be attacked before they have the chance to attack.

RIGHT. I have decided that Minna Caroline is a threat as she is just too darned pretty.

2. The 10KI's remove from power any nation that is deemed a threat to us or to our allies, and to also remove from power any nation that endorses a nation that threatens us or our allies.

Our Delegate Ananke endorsed Minna Caroline so I must now attack her and remove her from power.

3. TITO hold a forum wide referendum before any major decision

THE forum referendum is being cluttered by nations (NON - TITO nations, quite likely invader puppets posing as members) and we never reach any major decision.
A major decision being what to have for breakfast before deploying.
Everyone posting in the referendum is a threat and quite likely has endorsed someone at some point that I must now attack as well.

=============================
You do see the point I am making?

[Echolilia]

Aldershofsean, I think the main thing you are missing is that TITO is not the military arm of 10KI. It is an entirely separate organization that just happens to be based in our region and whose chief executive happens to be the 10KI founder.

It is not proper for a 10KI political party to try to influence TITO in any way.

[Ad Infinitum]

Look kid, if you want to influence TITO, then join up and move through the ranks and prove that you know what you're doing. If you still have the same bravado, I'm sure Grub will hear you out when you're TO yourself.

... and then probably laugh and demote you.

[Grub]

In the 10000 Islands, I have the final say in all matters regarding TITO. TITO is not a democracy and will not be advised by any political party. If this remains a tenant of your party, then your party will be in violation of the 10000 Islands Constitution. Section 2.1 of the Constitution is very clear on my authority on TITO matters. These facts have already been mentioned here several times as well.

At this point, you are beating a dead horse. Political parties have *zero* say regarding TITO, so all of your points regarding TITO should be removed from your party if you want to continue with it.

I am closing down this thread for now. If you would like to revise the goals of your party you are free to start a new thread.

Grub

[Anime Daisuki]

Apr 5, 2012 1:10:09 GMT -5 Wordy said:

1. All nations, deemed to be a threat, be attacked before they have the chance to attack.

RIGHT. I have decided that Minna Caroline is a threat as she is just too darned pretty.

Quote of the year ;D