WW41: PAWHUGGERS

[Sauron]

I did really enjoy this game and feel sorry for TAS more so who we did kinda throw under the bus a little. Sorry TAS. I originally didn't expect him to be lynched but it did prove a successful play in the end.

Sheynat did great in his alliance and really turned around the game for sure! We'd still have had a chance had TCL not thrown in the towel, but understandably it was getting a little heated and he wanted to enjoy his holiday without thinking about this game which for us was starting to get intense.

I was still hopeful of securing a victory until I realised that a TI couldn't kill the hunter or LW during the night which meant even if I was successful in getting Flem and then Klop (as I'd planned to do) lynched it would of still been 2-1 if all my night kills were successful which would of been unlikely given I'd have needed to keep those 2 alive as they were the biggest suspects. Only Random and Shiz were possible targets while we slowly killed off the TI list. As it stood if everything had gone to plan it would of still been 2-1 and the only chance I would of had would be to ally with the hunter, which Pengu had already tried and been rejected. It would of been extremely difficult, but I was willing to give it a go.

Then Klop's PM came and it made a difficult task virtually impossible. I was half tempted to PM Ater to give me the Pawhugger write up he used, but the longer I delayed replying to Klop the more guilty I'd look, especially as he'd already said Flem had passed.

I've no hard feelings with Klop I enjoy playing with him and hope you don't stop. I do feel it crossed the line with that line of questioning but as the game was nearly up (as the lynching of Louis would of shown) I don't feel too bad. Had it been the start of the game might have been a different story

As it is I thought the Village played brilliantly and turned around a sure defeat! It was a very close game, and enjoyable one. Thanks for running this Ater.

I'd also love to see Aerso's comments when he was added to the Killed thread and saw I was a TI

[Sheynat]

I would definitely like to see the dead thread.

[Louisistan]

This was a great game - seriously, lots of fun after I really started participating.

Which one of you got LC to lose the game for you? That person should think about a career selling freezers in Antarctica. You'd make a fortune.
The Hunter-Village pact did not make sense from a gameplay perspective, as you had already publicly decided not to lynch Sheynat. So he couldn't win the game with your help.
From the roleplay perspective (aka storyline), the union of Hunter (actively wants to kill werwolf) and PAWHUGGERS (love Werwolves) made even less sense.

So whoever planted the idea of some sort of "moral victory" in his head, kudos. Lower Columbia, tough titties, you lost
The reason I was arguing so passionately about this wasn't me being upset about it (seriously, I don't get upset about WW), it was the last desperate try to seperate LC from the PAWHUGGERS. If Random hadn't come out as the defender, maybe I would have been able to sway one more vote to go after Sheynat, thus eliminating the LW and pulling the hunter on our side. That was the thought anyway.

As I said in both the TI and the death thread: I enjoy chaos. This game was certainly full of it.

[Shizensky]

LC didn't actually matter much in the end. He couldn't kill at night and couldn't be killed at night. He turned into a very valuable number that provided much needed padding. As long as the group decided not to lynch him, he helped us without choosing to do so. You shouldn't have focused on turning him against us - you should have focused on turning us against him.

Sheynat was the one who could have turned. The game could have been won for Sheynat and the TIs in one sweep if everybody agreed on a lunch target (perhaps by challenging LC's unprovable claim) and coordinating night kills.

[Louisistan]

Yeah, but Sheynat had already thrown me under the bus, he was firmly in your column.

[Aersoldorf]

Feb 8, 2015 4:02:59 GMT -5 Sauron said:

I'd also love to see Aerso's comments when he was added to the Killed thread and saw I was a TI

My initial post was that I had a feeling about TCL. I did say that you had played brilliantly and felt you were the MVP in my eyes. I also said this later:

Feb 6, 2015 11:30:19 GMT -5 Aersoldorf said:

TCL may have overplayed his role but take notes folks - Sauron has stayed out of it for the most part and after his earlier Mal maneuver he's going to be tough to spot

[Flemingisa]

It seems that most people feel that me and klopstock did with that test was technically ruining the game or ruining the fun or whatever (I can't remember everything I read) my only opinion is that I feel that it was nessecary for us to do that because form what I could tell of I didn't do that I was gonna be lynched and that would have pretty much crushed any chance of a pawhugfers victory... So say what you will but the bottom line is that we took advantages of loopholes and won the game.. Take that as you will but I'm still gonna have a hearty celebration

[Klopstock]

Feb 8, 2015 4:02:59 GMT -5 Sauron said:

Then Klop's PM came and it made a difficult task virtually impossible. I was half tempted to PM Ater to give me the Pawhugger write up he used, but the longer I delayed replying to Klop the more guilty I'd look, especially as he'd already said Flem had passed.

I've no hard feelings with Klop I enjoy playing with him and hope you don't stop. I do feel it crossed the line with that line of questioning but as the game was nearly up (as the lynching of Louis would of shown) I don't feel too bad. Had it been the start of the game might have been a different story

I'm glad you feel this way. After TCL's post, I was pretty sure you were the final Taco Islander. I wrote that PM to be as daunting as possible to a Taco Islander with the aim of flushing you out. Though it did occur to me that you might manage to scrounge up a PM.

Maybe it crossed a line? I certainly played the line to flush you out. But I definitely wouldn't have done it earlier in the game and definitely wouldn't have done it if I didn't already think you were the remaining Taco Islander.

Either way, the Taco Islanders were well hidden until Sheynat's maneuver changed the game. You all played well.

Feb 8, 2015 5:41:21 GMT -5 Louisistan said:

Which one of you got LC to lose the game for you? That person should think about a career selling freezers in Antarctica. You'd make a fortune.

As far as I know, that was his own decision.

[Echolilia]

Feb 8, 2015 4:02:59 GMT -5 Sauron said:

Then Klop's PM came and it made a difficult task virtually impossible. I was half tempted to PM Ater to give me the Pawhugger write up he used, but the longer I delayed replying to Klop the more guilty I'd look, especially as he'd already said Flem had passed.

I wish you had asked Ater (and if you did, Ater IMO should have given it to you). It would made things more interesting.

Feb 8, 2015 5:12:34 GMT -5 Sheynat said:

I would definitely like to see the dead thread.

I hate these message threads; I wish the seer's thread, the werewolf (in a normal sense of the term) thread, and the dead thread were all preserved for posterity. It would take three separate sub-boards with new passwords for each game, though.

[Shizensky]

Feb 8, 2015 12:11:38 GMT -5 Flemingisa said:

It seems that most people feel that me and klopstock did with that test was technically ruining the game or ruining the fun or whatever (I can't remember everything I read) my only opinion is that I feel that it was nessecary for us to do that because form what I could tell of I didn't do that I was gonna be lynched and that would have pretty much crushed any chance of a pawhugfers victory... So say what you will but the bottom line is that we took advantages of loopholes and won the game.. Take that as you will but I'm still gonna have a hearty celebration

If we had to take advantage of loopholes to win, we didn't deserve to win. I'd have preferred to have lost with integrity than to have won through shady tactics.

Think about it for a second. I was working my tail off trying to convince people we could trust a Werewolf who had already killed a few of us off. We turned the game on itself and put the TIs in a position where victory was no longer being served to them on a silver platter. People worked hard to get where we were. The game was a contest again, and it would have required perfect play on the side of whoever won.

I can see the merit in doing what it takes to win. The PAWHUGGERS embraced that by forcing a Hunter loss to our advantage, and the TIs protected Sauron by throwing TAS out early. None of that was taking advantage of the meta game, though. That was in-game strategy and scheming, it was taking calculated risks.

If every game was decided by similar "tactics", they wouldn't be fun. We might as well start every game by asking everybody a quiz about their role PM. it doesn't matter if it helps us win, it's against the spirit of the game. It takes away the fun and the intrigue. We basically used cheat codes. Yeah, we still won, but not because of any real skill on our part. I was feeling good about our chances, but I'm genuinely disappointed to have won the game the way we did. We could have earned it legitimately.

[Klopstock]

Feb 8, 2015 13:13:39 GMT -5 Shizensky said:

Think about it for a second. I was working my tail off trying to convince people we could trust a Werewolf who had already killed a few of us off. We turned the game on itself and put the TIs in a position where victory was no longer being served to them on a silver platter. People worked hard to get where we were. The game was a contest again, and it would have required perfect play on the side of whoever won.

I can see the merit in doing what it takes to win. The PAWHUGGERS embraced that by forcing a Hunter loss to our advantage, and the TIs protected Sauron by throwing TAS out early. None of that was taking advantage of the meta game, though. That was in-game strategy and scheming, it was taking calculated risks.. .

Yeah, we still won, but not because of any real skill on our part. I was feeling good about our chances, but I'm genuinely disappointed to have won the game the way we did. We could have earned it legitimately.

Your role in bringing about the Defender-Last Werewolf share was important. That's certainly true. But after learning the state of the Taco Islanders' camp at the end, I can't agree that the game was a contest after that point. Most of them certainly didn't think it was. And from my perspective, after TCL's post Sauron was already lit up like Mount Doom.

You wanted this game to unfold your way. That's fine, we all do that. Being frustrated when we don't get our wish is fine too. However, I was never going to sit back and die just so you could have your "pretty freaking historical" game at my expense. Flem, obviously apparently, felt the same way.

[The Candy Lane]

Feb 7, 2015 21:55:21 GMT -5 Klopstock said:

Feb 7, 2015 21:31:13 GMT -5 @tredania said:

If it wasn't for Sheynat's "hail Mary," we would have had a chance to win this. But the minute he pulled that, we knew that the game was already over, and everything that happened afterwards just gave us a "f--- it" attitude and we decided to just call it quits rather than dragging out a game that we knew we'd have absolutely no way of clearing ourselves over.

This is the feature of the game I regret. Frankly, I was at a loss when TCL outed himself. While I can see now how the Taco Islanders would be upset about the rapid developments, the rest of us didn't know anything for certain. In hindsight, you guys knew the game was up long before any of us ever could. Frustration at losing is inevitable in Werewolves; but I've never seen anything that severe. And I don't think it should ever get that severe.

I think I'm the only one who didn't enjoy this, I can't stand the loophole in the rules that would allow the LW and Hunter to work together, it just ruined the game for me. At that point the game was over and because I have a really stupid anxiety problem where I obsess over things like this, I decided to call it quits and enjoy my vacation. Sorry if I wrecked anyone's fun. It did feel a bit like throwing a brick through a window But really I shouldn't even be online right now, and I figured my sudden and convenient absence would doom me. I also thought I was the last TI left to be found.


Thanks for running the game Ater.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2015 15:29:10 GMT -5 Klopstock said:

Feb 8, 2015 13:13:39 GMT -5 Shizensky said:

Think about it for a second. I was working my tail off trying to convince people we could trust a Werewolf who had already killed a few of us off. We turned the game on itself and put the TIs in a position where victory was no longer being served to them on a silver platter. People worked hard to get where we were. The game was a contest again, and it would have required perfect play on the side of whoever won.

I can see the merit in doing what it takes to win. The PAWHUGGERS embraced that by forcing a Hunter loss to our advantage, and the TIs protected Sauron by throwing TAS out early. None of that was taking advantage of the meta game, though. That was in-game strategy and scheming, it was taking calculated risks.. .

Yeah, we still won, but not because of any real skill on our part. I was feeling good about our chances, but I'm genuinely disappointed to have won the game the way we did. We could have earned it legitimately.

Your role in bringing about the Defender-Last Werewolf share was important. That's certainly true. But after learning the state of the Taco Islanders' camp at the end, I can't agree that the game was a contest after that point. Most of them certainly didn't think it was. And from my perspective, after TCL's post Sauron was already lit up like Mount Doom.

You wanted this game to unfold your way. That's fine, we all do that. Being frustrated when we don't get our wish is fine too. However, I was never going to sit back and die just so you could have your "pretty freaking historical" game at my expense. Flem, obviously apparently, felt the same way.

Again, as Shiz said, it's about the integrity of the game itself. If you feel you have to resort to shady tactics to win a game rather than taking advantage of in-game actions, then it's not a real win. Don't bring Fleming into this and say he felt the same way about anything. He's new to this game and doesn't know all of how it operates.

And again, you had many other options and weren't in a desperate enough position to have to even employ shady tactics. You just chose the shady route because it was more convenient for you to use a frowned on tactic to try to push someone into a corner.

So your "I was never going to sit back and die" excuse is irrelevant, because obviously at that point, it wasn't going to happen. You guys had already discovered Louis, which would have given you an extra phase to which yo could have used Sheynat to attack Sauron, even without TCL revealing himself. You then could have gone after myself or Sauron with your new knowledge, giving you extra time to go after TCL whom, since he was off on holiday, wouldn't be around to defend himself.

In short, you guys held the advantage by far by knowing two TI identities as well as having the Werewolf on your side to attack those who you thought were TIs.

But instead you tried to employ an unnecessary tactic and tried to exploit a loophole in the rules to back a player into a corner by having him attempt to reveal something that wasn't yours to know in the first place.

It doesn't matter how you word it or what your intentions were, or what your excuses are. It's still an incredibly shady route that hurts the integrity of the game. Like Shiz said: When you win the game, do you want to win it because of the effort you put into mustering everything you could from inside the game itself, or do you want to win because you felt you had to pull from outside of the game to give you some kind of edge?

I don't know about you, but I'd greatly prefer the former because I'd feel like I actually played the game well, whereas the latter would make me feel like I had to cheat in some way to win. And maybe you personally didn't feel that way, but obviously you're the only one in this instance aside from Fleming (which, as I said, he's never really played Werewolf before as far as I know), since practically every other person who has played this game religiously felt like they got robbed in some way (either robbed of a potential victory because of a loophole exploit, or robbed of a fair victory because their teammate did such).

[The Candy Lane]

Though I will say that had I been around for Klops stunt I would have started cursing. I find stunts like that pretty abusive of the game mechanics. So it's a good thing I wasn't around.

[Flemingisa]

While I did say that if we had to win that way then that was fine.. I only offered to pm him so I could somehow stay alive.. Especially since it seems that everyone had me and sauron on their shortlists and I figured I would be axed.. If I had known it was that big of a flaw in the game mechanics than I wouldn't have done it.. I really just wanted to survive the whole game

[The Candy Lane]

Feb 8, 2015 16:23:36 GMT -5 Flemingisa said:

While I did say that if we had to win that way then that was fine.. I only offered to pm him so I could somehow stay alive.. Especially since it seems that everyone had me and sauron on their shortlists and I figured I would be axed.. If I had known it was that big of a flaw in the game mechanics than I wouldn't have done it.. I really just wanted to survive the whole game

I totally understand, and it isn't the first time something like this has been suggested either -not that I can remember which game it occurred in- so it's not like you guys broke new ground with that

[Sauron]

It's happened and I'm sure (hope) Klop wouldn't use such tactics again. As for Flem as long as the rules allow (some GMs prefer not to allow it) there is nothing preventing you from PMing you role to someone you trust. If you want to use a copy and paste of that role then that is fine. But the way Klop asked specific questions on the wording of Ater Nox's PM is definitely a grey area.

However, I really don't think it should take the shine off what was a very good victory for the village, and a horrifically crushing loss for Lower Columbia Like I alluded to earlier the game was almost up and it'd have only prolonged it slightly longer while you picked us off one by one. And as people have said Shey could have ordered a hit on the ones he suspected yes they might have died but you already had the advantage, so to me it didn't make any difference to the outcome. Just shortened it by a few turns.

[Klopstock]

Feb 8, 2015 15:54:29 GMT -5 @tredania said:

Don't bring Fleming into this and say he felt the same way about anything. He's new to this game and doesn't know all of how it operates.

I didn't "bring Fleming into this." He posted, then Shiz quoted his post and spoke against his views. I happen to agree with Flem, but I certainly didn't bring him into anything here.

Feb 8, 2015 15:54:29 GMT -5 @tredania said:

You guys had already discovered Louis, which would have given you an extra phase to which yo could have used Sheynat to attack Sauron, even without TCL revealing himself. You then could have gone after myself or Sauron with your new knowledge, giving you extra time to go after TCL whom, since he was off on holiday, wouldn't be around to defend himself.

In short, you guys held the advantage by far by knowing two TI identities as well as having the Werewolf on your side to attack those who you thought were TIs.

Obviously you guys knew the state of the game before the rest of us could be sure of it. However, speaking as a blind, powerless, and clueless PAWHUGGER, I never knew anything for certain. I said before that I had known where you guys were at, I would have let up. And I meant that.

Feb 8, 2015 15:54:29 GMT -5 @tredania said:

It doesn't matter how you word it or what your intentions were, or what your excuses are. It's still an incredibly shady route that hurts the integrity of the game. Like Shiz said: When you win the game, do you want to win it because of the effort you put into mustering everything you could from inside the game itself, or do you want to win because you felt you had to pull from outside of the game to give you some kind of edge?

I certainly feel that I did "muster everything" that I "could from inside the game itself." I put a lot of effort into figuring out who was what from the very beginning. I was wrong about that quite a bit, and made corrections as the game progressed. There were a lot of plot turns and sudden reveals to judge too. I certainly didn't find evaluating those to be easy. I also put myself on the line to defend those who were being targeted simply for not conforming to some people's (misguided) notions of proper behavior.

You can criticize the PM. I can see that it's controversial, and perhaps the rules should be changed because of that. But don't diminish other peoples efforts and belittle other people's sense of morality simply because you're upset.

[Echolilia]

It makes for better games when everyone is working just for their team to win, not for personal survival (unless that's a victory condition for them).

[Sheynat]

It's not controversial at all, Klop. You're the only one with an opinion other than "that shit was dirty." It didn't actually affect the outcome, as PH victory was basically inevitable at that point. But don't do it again.

[The Candy Lane]

I can see that it's controversial, and perhaps the rules should be changed because of that.

Really? From what I've read this isn't a rules issue. You were no longer playing the game.

It goes against the very fabric of the game, you're no longer playing in character but stepping outside of the game to something a character would not know. Talking in chat or pm is fair and the information is used in the same way as if it were posted by the player in the game thread. You still have to decide whether or not to trust the player posting the information. Aside from that, if you think it's actually a legit and fair strategy we should just employ it on day 1 each time. But seeing as these ideas could pop up more often, it might be worth developing a game ethics post that is in the OP or WW history thread.

[Shizensky]

For the record, I fully expected to die in the last night phase. The TIs would have gone for Random or myself to keep the suspect pool as open as possible. I was going for a team victory. If I was interested in self-preservation I wouldn't have dismantled the TI victory that was less than a day away.

Being alive isn't always required to win. TAS would have been just as victorious as Sauron had the TIs won.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2015 16:36:25 GMT -5 Klopstock said:

Feb 8, 2015 15:54:29 GMT -5 @tredania said:

Don't bring Fleming into this and say he felt the same way about anything. He's new to this game and doesn't know all of how it operates.

I didn't "bring Fleming into this." He posted, then Shiz quoted his post and spoke against his views. I happen to agree with Flem, but I certainly didn't bring him into anything here.

Feb 8, 2015 15:54:29 GMT -5 @tredania said:

You guys had already discovered Louis, which would have given you an extra phase to which yo could have used Sheynat to attack Sauron, even without TCL revealing himself. You then could have gone after myself or Sauron with your new knowledge, giving you extra time to go after TCL whom, since he was off on holiday, wouldn't be around to defend himself.

In short, you guys held the advantage by far by knowing two TI identities as well as having the Werewolf on your side to attack those who you thought were TIs.

Obviously you guys knew the state of the game before the rest of us could be sure of it. However, speaking as a blind, powerless, and clueless PAWHUGGER, I never knew anything for certain. I said before that I had known where you guys were at, I would have let up. And I meant that.

Feb 8, 2015 15:54:29 GMT -5 @tredania said:

It doesn't matter how you word it or what your intentions were, or what your excuses are. It's still an incredibly shady route that hurts the integrity of the game. Like Shiz said: When you win the game, do you want to win it because of the effort you put into mustering everything you could from inside the game itself, or do you want to win because you felt you had to pull from outside of the game to give you some kind of edge?

I certainly feel that I did "muster everything" that I "could from inside the game itself." I put a lot of effort into figuring out who was what from the very beginning. I was wrong about that quite a bit, and made corrections as the game progressed. There were a lot of plot turns and sudden reveals to judge too. I certainly didn't find evaluating those to be easy. I also put myself on the line to defend those who were being targeted simply for not conforming to some people's (misguided) notions of proper behavior.

You can criticize the PM. I can see that it's controversial, and perhaps the rules should be changed because of that. But don't diminish other peoples efforts and belittle other people's sense of morality simply because you're upset.

1: You're bringing Fleming into this because you talk about he was perfectly alright with it and using him as the example as to why your tactic was perfectly within grounds. And I'm simply stating that him being perfectly alright with it and PMing you is irrelevant, because that's completely on him. But just because he chooses to share something with you isn't the OK to attempt to push at another player for something they don't have to share with you, regardless of whether it was a bluff or not.

2: We knew the state of the game before you guys? You were already on the grounds to lynch Louis the moment Sheynat spoke up, and were practically head over heels into the belief of Sheynat after Random spoke up. What exactly was there for us to know before you guys? If it wasn't obvious to anyone outside of us that you were going to come after me next after you guys switched votes to Louis, then color me surprised. And considering even you yourself had your list down to TCL and Sauron being the potential two final TIs, then color me even more surprised that it wasn't at least somewhat obvious at that point who you were going to look at next the moment Louis and I were gone.

3: "Blind and clueless PAWHUGGER" doesn't mean "Pull from resources out of the game." It means put more effort into figuring out the bad guys by using what you know from INSIDE the game or what the other person is freely expressing to you in the chatroom or a PM they themselves sent to you. Did a person PM you with something that you're not sure about? Then it's fair game to post in the thread for everyone to see. Someone say something in the chatroom that didn't sit well with you? Same story. But PMing a player to goad them into telling about their role PM? No.

4: I'm not "diminishing efforts and belittling other people's sense of morality simply because I'm upset." That's crossing another line there. I'm condemning your actions for reaching outside of the game to pull at something that you have no right to. Your efforts inside the game itself were commendable and you were putting up a fairly great game. Hell, beforehand you had your suspects down perfectly, and even though I knew that we weren't going to last since you were putting the pieces together, I was still ready for it. But the moment I really became upset was the moment you decided to cross that line and pull a stunt like that. Compared to how you were playing in the thread, it was very underhanded as well as completely unnecessary, regardless of whether or not Fleming was the one that decided to PM you or not. As I said, him PMing you with his role is his choice. But, again, that doesn't give you the consent to PM other players and attempt to use their own role PMs to gain something from them, regardless of what it is that you're attempting to get from them.

There's a reason that we don't allow screenshots of those same PMs, and you're right that the rule should be extended to say that the role PMs are strictly off limits, period.

[Klopstock]

Feb 8, 2015 16:43:02 GMT -5 Sheynat said:

It's not controversial at all, Klop. You're the only one with an opinion other than "that shit was dirty." It didn't actually affect the outcome, as PH victory was basically inevitable at that point. But don't do it again.

I can accept that. You guys have played 40 Werewolf games before this one. Having a consensus view of what is and isn't fair play is natural. I can accept that my notion of where the line was didn't conform to that view. But I can't accept that I "cheated."

[The Candy Lane]

Feb 8, 2015 17:00:19 GMT -5 Klopstock said:

I can accept that. You guys have played 40 Werewolf games before this one. Having a consensus view of what is and isn't fair play is natural. I can accept that my notion of where the line was didn't conform to that view. But I can't accept that I "cheated."

I don't think you meant to cheat. You were playing great and won the game. As happens to many players - myself included- you got caught up in the game and this time it lead you to do something you didn't know would be breaking the unwritten code of conduct or rules or whatever you want to call it.

But at this point it's all irrelevant, let's just keep it from happening again.

Congrats to the village!

[Aersoldorf]

Can we simply agree to not do it again and get ready for 42?

There's no need for it to turn into sniper wars. We play to have fun. Sometimes things happen that we wish hadn't but I don't think we should make personal attacks. Merely pointing out the faux pas will suffice.

[Shizensky]

Yeah, we're all kinda beating a dead horse at this point. Totally ready to play another game though.

[Deleted]

I will agree with this. At this point it just seems like we're arguing for the sake of arguing and are completely overshadowing the village's victory. Congratulations to the winners!

[Klopstock]

Feb 8, 2015 16:59:01 GMT -5 @tredania said:

1: You're bringing Fleming into this because you talk about he was perfectly alright with it and using him as the example as to why your tactic was perfectly within grounds. And I'm simply stating that him being perfectly alright with it and PMing you is irrelevant, because that's completely on him. But just because he chooses to share something with you isn't the OK to attempt to push at another player for something they don't have to share with you, regardless of whether it was a bluff or not.

2: We knew the state of the game before you guys? You were already on the grounds to lynch Louis the moment Sheynat spoke up, and were practically head over heels into the belief of Sheynat after Random spoke up. What exactly was there for us to know before you guys? If it wasn't obvious to anyone outside of us that you were going to come after me next after you guys switched votes to Louis, then color me surprised. And considering even you yourself had your list down to TCL and Sauron being the potential two final TIs, then color me even more surprised that it wasn't at least somewhat obvious at that point who you were going to look at next the moment Louis and I were gone.

3: "Blind and clueless PAWHUGGER" doesn't mean "Pull from resources out of the game." It means put more effort into figuring out the bad guys by using what you know from INSIDE the game or what the other person is freely expressing to you in the chatroom or a PM they themselves sent to you. Did a person PM you with something that you're not sure about? Then it's fair game to post in the thread for everyone to see. Someone say something in the chatroom that didn't sit well with you? Same story. But PMing a player to goad them into telling about their role PM? No.

4: I'm not "diminishing efforts and belittling other people's sense of morality simply because I'm upset." That's crossing another line there. I'm condemning your actions for reaching outside of the game to pull at something that you have no right to. Your efforts inside the game itself were commendable and you were putting up a fairly great game. Hell, beforehand you had your suspects down perfectly, and even though I knew that we weren't going to last since you were putting the pieces together, I was still ready for it. But the moment I really became upset was the moment you decided to cross that line and pull a stunt like that. Compared to how you were playing in the thread, it was very underhanded as well as completely unnecessary, regardless of whether or not Fleming was the one that decided to PM you or not. As I said, him PMing you with his role is his choice. But, again, that doesn't give you the consent to PM other players and attempt to use their own role PMs to gain something from them, regardless of what it is that you're attempting to get from them.

There's a reason that we don't allow screenshots of those same PMs, and you're right that the rule should be extended to say that the role PMs are strictly off limits, period.

Alright. I think everything that can productively be said has been said. My view is clear, your view is clear, Shiz's view is clear, Flem's view is clear. I don't hold any of it against you or anyone else beyond the the game. And I can accept that I erred and make corrections going forward.

EDIT: Ok, we all agree. And I quoted myself by mistake.

[Echolilia]

While we're vaguely on the topic:

In a few games, each person has been given not just a role but a specific name, with all the names listed in the beginning post. This has bothered me, because if everyone publicly announced their role and name on day one (forcing the werewolves to either lie or stay silent), every lynch becomes at worst a 50/50 chance of getting a werewolf, giving a pretty sure chance of a village victory.

I'd like to suggest that hosts not do this in the future.