What has Bush done right? (Moved from message brd)

[Grub (Lenlyvit)]

In response to Ad Infinitum asking what Bush has done right during his term.

Any person that dies in a war in bad, but considering what we knew at the time about the threat Iraq posed, it would have been irresponsible for Bush to have not gone into Iraq. In fact, besides the WMD, we should have gone into Iraq long before we did.

With what Bush has done right, he's had to deal with the scumbags that attacked us on 9/11. We went into Afghanistan & Iraq and took them over. Iraq is going to have their own gov't soon enough and then we can begin letting them govern themselves.

If Bush hadn't gone into Iraq, Libya would have never given up their WMD's. The debate about whether Iraq had WMD in 2001 is still going on. Where did the chemicals in Jordan come from? That chemical shell that exploded last month was 100% a WMD, albeit a small one. One thing that is not up for debate is that Iraq did, when we attacked, have the capability and machinery to produce more WMD. Iraq was a threat and Saddam's brutal regime needed to go.

One more thing about "what has Bush done right" is that the rape rooms in Iraq are now closed. There is not torture going on whenever the Iraqi secret police feel like it. Saddam's sons aren't out being evil slimballs anymore. As ingrateful as *some* of the Iraqis are, their country is better off now and that's 20+ million people.

[Henneth annun]

Think about it. Hitler needed to be stopped. We took 20 million casualties to save 100 million. The Iraqi war 300 Soldirs died, we saved 20 million plus. I know there is a person behind each number but that's what soldirs do, they fight. Grub is tottaly right.

[Sheynat]

Yes, Bush dealt with Afghanistan. That's good, that's right. As for Iraq...the 9/11 Commission has stated quite flatly that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And I can't corroborate this, but I believe even the Administration has backed down from that claim. As for Libya, Libya's been drifting from rogue-state status for a while now. Iraq didn't create anything new in Libya, it just sped up what was happening already. And those "WMD"? Those were shells consisting of chemicals that had the potential to mix into sarin. The potential. I won't deny that that is indeed dangerous. But that potential passed long ago. Those chemicals were inert. No longer dangerous. Those two shells were no longer WMD. And I'm sorry. Two shells of inert sarin proves nothing we didn't know-namely, that they ONCE had WMD. A thpusand dead, our international reputation wrecked, and we've gone so nuts as a country that Libya-freakin' LIBYA- can call us a rogue state and be taken seriously.. and we still haven't found live, viable WMD, as desperately as the neoconservatives are trying to make us believe that we have. As for the rape-rooms, yes, we temporarily stopped the torture going on in Iraq. I sincerely doubt that it will be permanent. And besides that, look at all the other countries that do even worse things that we won't touch because we're either allied with them (Saudi Arabia, for one) or they have nukes (North Korea and China.)

[Grub (Lenlyvit)]

With Sheynat's comments about that one shell, it was indeed old, but it was still viable. Does that not make it a WMD just because it's old? The only reason that shell didn't hurt more than the few soldiers it did was because it wasn't fired the correct way. In order for a shell like that to do what it was made for, it needs to be fired through the air. While the shell is in the air and spinning, the chemical reaction starts and when it explodes the chemicals come out. This Iraqi shell was exploded from a standing position, thus not allowing the chemicals within to fully mix and cause the amount of damage they are capable of.

[Sheynat]

And in response to Henneth Annun's statement, yes, Hitler needed to be stopped. Saddam and Hitler are two totally different people. Hitler died when Saddam was ten, okay? And Henneth Annun also keeps citing an incorrect figure concerning our casualties. Last I heard we had eight hundred dead. At the rate of death we've had, since "the last I've heard" about two hundred people should have died. Therefore, we have had approximately a thousand casualties. And my point about the age of the chemical is that, yes, in this case, age DOES make it less destructive. The chemicals were so old that even properly mixed, they would not form sarin. This was a fifteen, twenty year old shell, and sarin goes inviable after three to five years.

[Henneth annun]

Sheynat has a piont and I think Bush did the right thing but it might have been a family matter too. George bush Sr. wanted his saon to finish what he had started in Operation Desert storm. That new movie Farenhieght 9/11 pionts sheynats view out exactly. And I don't agree with it.

[Sheynat]

Even I disagree with that movie on a lot of stuff. They make much of the American evacuation of the bin Laden family from the States; well, that's simple. The Bin Ladens disowned Osama very long ago, and they were trying to save these folks from undeserved retaliation. But the thing about the family matter isn't Desert Storm. The thing about that is that in '93, Bush Sr. went to Kuwait City for a parade in commemoration of the Gulf War. Saddam flipped a Scud at it. Didn't hit, but the dishonor was there. So BAM.

[Grub (Lenlyvit)]

Sheynat is right about the numbers. These numbers aren't exact, but since the war started about 600 soldiers have been killed in combat along with another 220 or so killed in non combat situations. Overall, I think the number is around 836. I got that from an anti war site.

[Subwoofy]

I CAN'T BELIEVE SOME OFF YOU, GEORGE BUSH IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,MAYBE SOME OF YALL ARE JUST HERE TO DEBATE BUT I DON'T THINK YALL KNOW WHAT YOUR TAKING ABOUT,GEORGE BUSH HAS DONE ALOUT RIGHT BUT SOME OF YOU HYPOCRITES STARED A THING WHERE IT SAYS WHAT HE DID WRONG, I'M SURE FOR EVERY THING HE DID WRONG HE DID 30 THINGS OR MORE RIGHT. GEORGE BUSH IS A GOOD PRESIDENT AND I HOPE HE GETS RE-ELECTED.


KA-MAY-HAAAAA

[Henneth annun]

Me too. I wonder how Nader would handle this situation.

[Sheynat]

Yes, Ka, he is the President. That's why his actions are so fiercely debated. He's the President, for crying out loud, not the friggin Fuhrer. I don't know where you're from, but there are no sedition laws in the United States, and a senator who tried to introduce one would not get re-elected. If the Senate didn't impeach him right there. Second, kill the caps, dude. Third, this entire debate is about what he has done right or wrong. See, the way this works is, conservatives state what they feel Bush has done right. Liberals state what they feel Bush has done wrong. Both sides try to use reason to prove the other wrong. You're just stating opinion with no fact to back it up. There's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't get you taken very seriously. And how would Nader handle the situation? Hah. Don't know. He's too kooky for most liberals, mind you.

[Subwoofy]

AND ONE MORE THING,IN WAR PEOPLE DIE THATS JUST HOW IT GOES,IF I WERE 18 I WOULD JOIN THE ARMY AND GO FIGHT RIGHT NOW,SO DON'T TALK ABOUT IF ONE PERSON DIES IN A WAR ITS BAD,IT HAPPENS FOR A GREATER CAUSE AND BRAVE SOLDIERS DIED FOR THE COUNTRY,IF WE DON'T STOP THEM NOW THERE PROBLEY WILL BE ALOUT MORE TRAGEDIES TO COME.



KA-MAY-HAAAAA

[Henneth annun]

Oh, and Yups questioned my statement about Saddam attacking Israel. Saddam had been agitating Israel by sending SCUDs at the country, if we left Saddam to his business, he might have gotten sireous and with alliance with Jordan, I think he might have attacked Israel but since we threw him out of power, no attacks on Israel! (By a forign country)

[Sheynat]

If I were eighteen, Ka, I would also join the Marines and go fight. I think the war is 100 percent BS. I'd still enlist. But I'm only seventeen, and they'd probably 4-F me anyway. And yes, if one person dies in a war, it is, in fact, bad. I could get down with untold millions dying for a worthy enough cause. But I just doubt that there was any sort of cause worthy of people dying for. And as for Saddam attacking Israel, I'm sorry. There is no way Saddam would be that crazy. None. Israel is a nuclear power with missiles that can reach Badhdad. Iraq is not a nuclear power period. No country on earth is that crazy.

[Subwoofy]

Hey Sheynat,when you turn eighteen are you going to join up?

[Sheynat]

Might, if they need a geek who's nearly blind in one eye. They might let my facility with languages and my computer skills override that, but otherwise, I think they'd 4-F me.

[Henneth annun]

"Saddam isn't that crazy!" Are you joking Sheynat! Wow, um did you hear what saddam told his son to do for the Iraqi Oylmpic team after they lost. He tourtured them for months. And don't even get me started on the Kurd, the Shiites, and those elections. He's preety crazy alright.

[Sheynat]

You're right. I should have said "He isn't that suicidial." Saddam was a nutball, but no way in hell was he going to attack a nuclear power when the fanciest weapon in his country is a 1980's Soviet tank.

[Henneth annun]

You have a point but I mean what do you think was in his head when he attacked Kuait! Of course America would come in, but he attacked anyways! And 13 years later he finds himself in a prision with no shred of dignity left.

[Sheynat]

Actually, he couldn't IMAGINE that America would come in. He didn't have clue one. He was foolish enough to believe that we would not follow through on our threats to make him vacate Kuwait. And even in Kuwait, he wasn't toying with the total destruction of his country. We gave him the military equivalent of five across the eyes. He attacks Kuwait, and he thinks we're probably just going to let him take it and at most bomb a couple of his cities. He attacks Israel, and Iraq turns into a field of glass. Plain and simple.

[Henneth annun]

That's a good point. I think it's bad that we supported Iraq in the Iraq/Iran war. Bush did the right thing but I think we should just leave the Middle East exept for Israel.

[Subwoofy]

hey sheynat, what does F-4 ME mean?

[Sheynat]

When you apply for service or are drafted, you get one of two ratings. 1-A means they're accepting you, take a rifle and stand a post. 4-F means "unfit for service" for some reason or another. In my case, it'd be that I'm nearly blind in one eye due to a inherited corneal malfunction (that's the best word for it) and the fact that there's some kind of messed up wiring between hand and brain for me.

[Subwoofy]

so Sheynat, are you like Steven hawking or somthing?

[Re-Yupanqui]

Ka-may-haaaaa said:

AND ONE MORE THING,IN WAR PEOPLE DIE THATS JUST HOW IT GOES,IF I WERE 18 I WOULD JOIN THE ARMY AND GO FIGHT RIGHT NOW,SO DON'T TALK ABOUT IF ONE PERSON DIES IN A WAR ITS BAD,IT HAPPENS FOR A GREATER CAUSE AND BRAVE SOLDIERS DIED FOR THE COUNTRY,IF WE DON'T STOP THEM NOW THERE PROBLEY WILL BE ALOUT MORE TRAGEDIES TO COME.

Ka-may-haaaaa, yes you're right, in war people die. However, it IS bad if one person dies in a war. They did die for their country but they are dying after the "war" is supposed to be over, according to Bush, everyone should be out of Iraq. Are they? No. So now, the soldiers dying aren't a part of the war. So they aren't dying for their country, they're just dying. Plus, any death is something to be mourned, and it is bad, no matter whether its 1 or 100.

[Re-Yupanqui]

Sorry if thats dredging up old posts....


EDIT: Typo

[Grub (Lenlyvit)]

"And as for Saddam attacking Israel, I'm sorry. There is no way Saddam would be that crazy." - Sheynat

Saddam did attack Israel in the first Gulf War.

Yupanqui, Bush never said that the war was over. What he actually said was that major combat operations were over meaning going from Kuwait to Baghdad, etc. There is still fighting, but the division on division stuff was over when Bush said it was.

[Kellopalopalis]

Grub said:

Yupanqui, Bush never said that the war was over. What he actually said was that major combat operations were over meaning going from Kuwait to Baghdad, etc. There is still fighting, but the division on division stuff was over when Bush said it was.

Oh yes, I remember. That was the time when Bush flew onto the aircraft carrier in his flight suit. I could list the other world leaders that choose to dress in military uniforms, but I don't think I have to. It makes it especially bad considering Bush hardly qualifies as having been in the military, and was using the guise of service to garner false patriotism. I also remember the giant "Mission Accomplished" banner hanging behind Bush that was orchestrated by the White House. The point is that Bush, because of belligerence and poor planning, didn't anticipate all the trouble we would face after the war and has endangered American soldiers, American interests and America itself.

[Grub (Lenlyvit)]

That part of the mission was accomplished. Not only was it accomplished, but it was done in very, very good time. Iraq is the size of California and you would be hard pressed to find many armies in the history of the world that took that amount of land in that amount of time.

Also, Bush was a pilot in the National Guard. While he never faced combat, being a pilot for the Guard was indeed dangerous and Guardsmen pilots did die in training. If you dis the National Guard, I think you are doing those people, including Bush, a disservice.

[Kellopalopalis]

But as we learned, the mission was not really accomplished. The sign was arranged by the White House to make Americans believe that war in Iraq was for the most part, over. Hardly

And I wasn't dissing the National Guard when I said that, I was dissing Bush, who was AWOL.