Great Debate For The 1st 4 Senatorial Elections

[Parthini]

As there is much want to have a giant debate, I will answer that call. I or Grub will come up with ideas for things for people to discuss. Please follow rules for regular NationStates forums and be polite. Go in any order you wish and at any time you wish.

ASNP
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My First Issue:
Should 10000 Islands become more or less involved in the NationStates world, and how?

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

The Ten-thousand Islands should have a stronger presence in the world but still should be catious to act and as subtle as possible. By subtle I mean the region makes no deals until we have full information of all involved and their intentions. The Ten-thousand Islands should be known as a region that stands against region-crashing and is willing to help the opressed, yet we must do this in a catuious manner. If we are careless we can do more harm than good. This would include the matter of pre-emptive strikes, I believe we should not rule them out but we must be prudent in our action or otherwise we would be no better than region-crashers.

[EUtopia]

I feel that the time is right for the 10000 Islands to go forth into the NS world. Undoubtedly we need to tread carefully, there are a lot of pits to fall into out there, but the rewards would certainly outweigh the risks.
Not only would we become widely known in NationStates, rapidly increasing growth and recruitment as a result, but we could quickly become a major guiding force, helping to shape NS in the way we see fit.
We should forge friendships and close relations, but not risk losing respectability by diving into situations we don't know enough about.

Neither do I think we should jump into the ADN or any such alliance, as has been suggested by some other candidates. I fear we would get lost in the mass of this, mostly bureaucratic, alliance. Although, I do think we should gain favourable relations with them.

In conclusion, we should make our way into the world with great care, keeping our unique identity and renowned respectability. We should not make alliances without in depth research of exactly what we're getting into, but we should send many ambassadors forth and make as many friends and find out as much as we can.

regards,
EU-topia

[Jesioneka]

POSITION: The 10000 Islands should be more involved in the NationStates world.

There are essentially three ways to become more influential and involved in the world: militarily, diplomatically, and economically (in terms of trade). The NS world, unfortunately, does not lend itself to economic involvement or cooperation abroad, so I personally would welcome suggestions from any nation in order to build economic involvement. Our illustrious founder Grub has total charge of TITO. What remains is diplomatic involvement:

DIPLOMATIC INVOLVEMENT: Here, I see the potential for great growth. Because of our great growth in size recently, a plethora of embassies have been sprouting up within the 10000 Islands, and our ambassadorships have never been more numerous. Jesioneka welcomes this growth and sees international alliances as the key to stability for all regions.

One of my major, key goals as Senator is this: to establish a network between our UN delegate and UN delegates of other large regions who are likeminded. In this way, working in conjunction with other regions, the 10000 Islands can have the maximum efficiency in the United Nations by voting in step with other large regions. Of course, as a supporter of sovereign rights, our ideas and political stances will always be first and foremost in determining our vote in the UN, but if we can convince and persuade other large regions to vote with us, then we will be assured success in the UN. I recall a number of resolutions that were passed during Himes' delegacy which the 10000 Islands did not support, some on close votes; if we had worked with other international allies, we could have stopped their passage.

Secondly, another major goal is to establish a center for writing potential UN resolutions. So many resolutions in the UN are terribly written and constructed. If we had even a simple forum on the message board for this, we could deliver any number of resolutions, in line with the ideals of the 10000 Islands, which would increase our international clout.

All in all, I would push the 10000 Islands toward more effective UN involvement.

(edited to adhere to the Constitution; the original post can still be found at my campaign headquarters)

[Nulibert]

Instead of clouding your brains with a mile long essay, I shall make it simple:

Our islands should definately become more involved in the Nationstates world. As I've said before, we do not want to become isolated from problems abroad. If we branch out under the umbrella of TITO we can form alliances of peace. The more friendships we make now the better we'll be if and when we are needed for assistance. I especially turn your attention to the situation in the Pacific, where people are being ejected from regions for not voting for the "right" person. These situations could erupt one day into war and we must keep an eye on that area, forming alliances with the groups in favor of liberty and freedom, not of tyranny and absolute rule.

I agree with the comments of TheSensitiveNewAge especially. Although we want to develop ourselves interregionally, we should not become too overextended and become war mongers. There's such a thing as going far enough and going too far with these issues.

I do also agree with EU-Topia, but I think that's being a little too light on it. We shouldn't be "afraid" of a situation, especially helping one of our friends with an invasion. We shouldn't be getting on the ladder if we can't fix the roof.

I do not really agree with Jesioneka. I feel his viewpoint is basically treating TITO like a gift, and not supporting that gift is not helping anyone. I feel as though we're being drowned in a sea of spinned words, but from what I can understand he advocates using TITO rather than contributing to it himself. If you mention TITO as part of your campaign, be a part of it. TITO is a vital part of the 10,000 Islands and without support from even our newest countries it will fall. I don't think he has enough experience to be our senator yet.

[Panthenia]

Again I will try to make this speech as short as possible and not go into a huge, rambling essay.

I feel that personally as a 10000 Islands member there is no reason to become more involved in the NationStates world at this moment in time however as we grow, things change and so do our alliances therefore we should become more involved when the (our) time is right. ie, when we have a strong, big backbone of a nation capable of defending itself and helping others whenever needs be.

Don't get me wrong we are close to that already as we have already suceeded in both the Urbanites and Romania but we are still a developing nation and the time is not yet right to become more involved. Becoming more involved straight away would seemingly be an invitation for trouble. As we all well know there are some regions and nations (naming no names) who simply were built for "World Domination" or "Troublemaking". If we became too involved these nations could take advantage of us and although they may be weak on the outside they could have secret allies. Although this is incredibly farfetched we cannot rule out this possibility and until we are 100% certain of defending ourselves to the max we shouldn't take ANY risks whatsoever.

As TheSensitiveNewAge said (good points by the way) we must be cautious and hang back for a while until the time is right. Despite this i feel that 10000 Islands plays quite an active role within the NS world and it's not as if we don't play a part at all. However, there is playing a part and playing a BIG part and we must not fall into the latter.

Thank You for reading,
The United Socialist States of Panthenia
the Ambassador to The Trinity Republic

[Thorn]

G'day all

I am against further Active expansion of our region for a number of reasons.

1. Over a certain size regions become unwieldy and hard to manage.
a. This allows subversive challenges to the UN Delegate.
b. Flaming and ‘me too’ s can get out of hand.
c. Our neighbourhood is full strangers and ones voice is lost in the crowd.

2. Those people that wish to immigrate to a great region such as this will actively look for it or the regions name will filter down to them through our existing networks.

3. The benefits of being a medium power are:
a. We have the capability and mobility to defend both ourselves and our allies.
b. Many of the people within the region are known and can therefore be trusted to some degree.
c. Members of such medium powers tend to be more active within their region so that a consensus on issues is easier to reach and the group can be mobilised faster.

If we are to expand then I put forward that we should develop a more formal foreign ministry that has a structured hierarchy and takes it policy directives from the ruling committee.

Cheers
Thorn of the Washing Machines

[EUtopia]

Washing said:

G'day all

I am against further Active expansion of our region for a number of reasons.

1. Over a certain size regions become unwieldy and hard to manage.
a. This allows subversive challenges to the UN Delegate.
b. Flaming and ‘me too’ s can get out of hand.
c. Our neighbourhood is full strangers and ones voice is lost in the crowd.

2. Those people that wish to immigrate to a great region such as this will actively look for it or the regions name will filter down to them through our existing networks.

3. The benefits of being a medium power are:
a. We have the capability and mobility to defend both ourselves and our allies.
b. Many of the people within the region are known and can therefore be trusted to some degree.
c. Members of such medium powers tend to be more active within their region so that a consensus on issues is easier to reach and the group can be mobilised faster.

If we are to expand then I put forward that we should develop a more formal foreign ministry that has a structured hierarchy and takes it policy directives from the ruling committee.

Cheers
Thorn of the Washing Machines

I disagree with many of your points (although this isn't really the issue on debate).

1.a. Since we have a highly active founder, any attacks to gain delegacy would be completely useless.
b. Although some flaming is unavoidable, lets not take it out of perspective, flamers are kicked or banned by the mods, it would be a very small problem.
c. A voice is only lost in the crowd if you don't make it heard, talk to the appropriate people through the appropiate mediums etc. If you don't do this your voice is lost in a medium region as well.

3.a. Size doesn't decrease mobility, it means more people are online and hence increases mobility.
b. These people will not become less trustworthy or known because the region is bigger.
c. I tend to find that it is smaller regions that are less active as less is happening, apart from the pacifics and RR of coarse, which can not be braught into the equation due to their unique position.

regards,
EU-topia

[New Boniventure]

I'm sorry that I haven't been able to post earlier.

I feel that we do need to become more involved in the world. This does not mean, however, that we need to start right away. We need to give ourselves time to develop and get used to our new government structure before we begin making alliances and launching large scale liberation missions. I am not saying that we need to wait for a long period of time, just enough time for the nations of 10000 Islands to realize that they hold the power, and how important it is that they use it.
-Like many of you have mentioned, we must not be so quick to act and launch preemptive attacks that other regions begin to indentify us as the region-crashers. Through the many missions we launch, it must remain clear that the nations of 10000 Islands are liberators, helping the innocent in their time of need.
-Becoming more involved in the world scene will serve as a good recruitment strategy. As we become more known for our good deads, we can expect a large number of like-minded nations to move into our region.
-Now, as for alliances. At this point, I am not fully satisfied with any of the large well known alliances I have heard about (but when elected senator, it will be my constituents to decide whether or not an alliance is satisfactory or not). I, myself, do not think we should join an alliance if we do not agree with their policies, or feel confident that this alliance will last and remain active. If we were to join an alliance, I would insist that we operate a full scale investigation about the history of the alliance and the other region involved.

-------------

-I believe that 'Washing Machines mentioned that 10000 Islands becoming even larger may become a bad thing, and I can see where he is coming from...But, I believe that there are more advantages to living in a growing and expanding region. Although it may be harder to be heard, it gives you a chance to more easily share your ideas with your fellow nations. Washing Machines also brought up the point that a large region may be more prone to flaming, but I am certain that our recruiters and heads of the Immigration department are working hard to filter out nations they feel may cause a problem. Residing in a larger region also increases the chances that the government will remain in place because of a large number of active nations taking part in it.


[This is just a brief summary of my views. If you have any questions about things I left out, please feel free to ask.]

[Jesioneka]

Nulibert, allow me to respond to your attack and simplify part of my stance.

Please understand that I only discussed TITO because I believe it is a part of getting involved internationally. It is only a part of my campaign because, as Senator, I may have to make certain decisions regarding its use. Now I am not a member and do not foresee becoming a member if I am elected Senator because I am campaigning as the voice of non-TITO nations within the 10000 Islands. Understand that there are nations who are not a part of TITO, due to their right to be pacifists, neutral, or non-aligned, and they should have a say in this government too. I am providing them an outlet, and, so far, have received support from considerable nations.

As far as experience, I have been a member of the 10000 Islands since shortly after my nation's foundation in September of 2003. I have lived in this region since it was small, only consisting of thirty or forty countries. This means I've been an active, respected resident nearly 3 times longer than you've even existed. I understand the politics of the region, TITO, and the UN as I've lived under 4 different UN Delegates. You, sir, would be considered the newcomer to the region by many compared to me, even if you have a few battle stars in TITO.

[Nulibert]

I should point out that this is the first time I have seen you make any posts since I've been here.

If you are not going to be a part of TITO, please do not include TITO in your campaign. I do realize that TITO will be a "hurdle" for you in your decisions, but if you choose to use TITO in your campaign I would expect you to be a part of it.

I compare your comments to a non-UN nation asking for UN peacekeepers during a time of crisis. Do not take advantage of something that you are not supporting yourself. Do not drink the water that you do not help to get from the well.

[Fleeb]

As I am not a candidate, I merely cite the following from the Constitution, relevant to the discussion of senators taking positions concerning TITO matters:

"Article IV.
4. The 10000 Islands Treaty Organization is the defense and military arm of the 10000 Islands, subject to the authority of the Chief Executive as Commander in Chief. No action of the Senate shall have authority to intervene with or override decisions of the Chief Executive."

[Jesioneka]

Point well taken, Fleeb. It appears we all should have read up on the Constitution a little more before including the use of TITO in our positions.

In light of this, the TITO discussion becomes a moot point. Not one of us has any authority to advise the actions of TITO in any way, shape, or form. Because Nulibert and I mentioned TITO in our posts, we will have to rethink our strategies, then, at least in part.

I still stand by my argument for more involvement diplomatically through the UN as listed above in my original post.

[New Boniventure]

Although senators have no power over TITO, our opinion on certain matters concerning it are still important for the voters to here. Our opinions on TITO could very likely be an accurate reflection of our mind-set on other matters.

Thank you for bringing that up though, Fleeb.

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

Washing Machines brought up the subject of immigration being a problem. The 10k Islands already has a Department to handle that and with our intelligence gatherers we are safe on those accounts alone, but Grub having near-miraclous powers we do not need to worry. As to the size of the region, I remember when I was one of twenty nations in the Islands, heck, I am one of the orginal TITO members. In all the time I have been here Grub has always listened to whoever spoke, even if you a newbie to the region and game and we owe him a large debt of gratitude for that.

That all being said, I would like to ask Jesioneka a question if you do not mind. For UN proposals, what sort of policies do you plan on creating and do you have any regions in mind already to help us pass bills?

[New Boniventure]

Like I have stated before, growth is something we should not be afraid of. Our Department of Immigration will certainly work hard to insure that 10000 Islands remains free of nations unworthy to call our region home. [By 'unworthy', I mean nations that will cause trouble by flaming or offending others.]

In a large stable region like 10000 Islands, security is not a problem. Still, I can assure you that every nation that has displayed suspicous behavior is being watched very carefully.

Also, as senator, I will make sure that no voices are lost in the croud. Then again, like TheSensitiveNewAge stated, Grub has always done a fantastic job of listening to everybody.

[TheNorthernIsles]

would you have new smaller nations or larger older nations join 10000 islands?

[New Boniventure]

Honestly, I am fine with both older and new nations. While older nations may have more experience, it appears that many of the newer nation in 10000 Islands are doing well, and willing to learn.
Newer nations are often watched more closely, only because of the chance that they could be a newly created puppet of a nation wishing to do harm to our region.

I believe that it is the attitude and determination of the nation that matters, not the age.

[Otupia]

I support most of the ideas that have put out by follow cannidates, but I believe that we should only make ourselves know to the world.
1. If we get to involved we may me attacked by more powerful regions.
2. Men are or become corupt we may become power hungry.
3. We should on the other hand offer small regions our help and allieship.

Regards,
The Republic of Otupia

[New Boniventure]

Otupia said:

I support most of the ideas that have put out by follow cannidates, but I believe that we should only make ourselves know to the world.
1. If we get to involved we may me attacked by more powerful regions.
2. Men are or become corupt we may become power hungry.
3. We should on the other hand offer small regions our help and allieship.

Regards,
The Republic of Otupia

Those are very valid points Otupia, but I am confident that our region is large and stable enough to prevent an attack from a larger region. I don't think there are any larger regions that would even consider attacking us, and Grub, who is a very active founder, would not let that happen.
I am also confident that the nations of 10000 Islands will not become power-hungry due to increased action and responsibility. That is simply not the kind of region we are.
I agree that we should offer our help and alliance to region that need it, but we also must be sure we approve of the region before we form an alliance. It would be unwise of us to form an alliance or offer help to a region before doing the necessary research.

[Nulibert]

I agree with Boniventure's comments, both large and small, young and old nations should be accepted into the 10,000 Islands. Everyone brings something different to the table.

[Thorn]

G'day all

It would seem that I have attracted the most criticism for my stance on expansion. Some of the arguments are quite valid, such as EU-topia’s point on larger regions having more activity, but the question that must be raised is this activity constructive?

From listening very closely to my opponents in this Senate campaign there would appear a consensus that expansion is a good thing in its self, however very few apart from TheSensitiveNewAge have put forward an actual policy on how this is to be achieved. Rather than prevaricating about expansion being desired but with caution I ask how we can form a concrete policy of advancement?


Fianlly I would ask the modirators to put foward a new debate topic as it seems to be that people are starting to repeat themselves, myself included.

Cheers
Thorn of the Washing Machines

[Nulibert]

Expansion policies should be adressed by the immigration department, as that's what it was created for.

[New Boniventure]

Creating a policy concerning population advancement is in the hands of the Department of Immigration.

I have, however, posted my policy on the subject earlier.

[Jesioneka]

To respond to TheSensitiveNewAge's question earlier concerning my proposals for more UN involvement:

I would begin by looking into building a voting bloc with our formal allies Texas and the Urbanites. (The Trinity Republic has no UN Delegate.) Since we already have a friendly relationship with them and share similar beliefs, perhaps we can come to some sort of agreement about UN resolutions. Certainly, we would have differences and not always vote alike, but at least our influence would grow in some form in the UN.

After our formal allies, I would enter talks with the largest regions, such as Europe, North America, Alcatraz, NationStates, etc. If the beliefs of the 10000 Islands pair well with these regions, we can have in-depth discussions about UN resolutions and jointly decide on them in some cases. I would use our already existing ambassadors and embassies to accomplish this.

Other than these, if we can find other likeminded regions, we could invite them to join our voting bloc. Ideally, of course, the 10000 Islands would be the dominant power in deciding how we vote on resolutions. The ultimate sovereign authority will always reside in our UN Delegate and the 10000 Islands.

In reference to the UN resolution writing center, it would be impartial and unbiased, simply to help any of our member states in writing resolutions. Members of the 10000 Islands could post draft resolutions there, and other nations could point out flaws or possible arguments against them in order to make resolutions coming from our region more solid.

I can clarify any of this if you like.

[Rent]

As this is my first post in the debate, I will try to cover everything:

I believe the role of 10,000 Islands is to act as a friend to all non-hostile regions, and send Ambassadors to all friendly regions with 5+ nations. To any smaller region, the benefits of being in a larger, better protected region like 10,000 Islands should be explained. It is our job, as one of the largest regions, to extend friendly arms to fleeing nations and to serve as a moderator in interregional disputes. We should open our borders to any friendly nation, both large or small. 10,000 Islands is a friendly region with much to offer in such a supportive community.

Rent

[EUtopia]

In order to do this we'd have to send out about 10,000 ambassadors.

[Panthenia]

Security-wise we are one of the best regions in NationStates if not the best. However our job as a region and as a defense organisation is not only to defend ourselves but to defend others; others which need to be defended. I believe that if we open ourselves up too much in NationStates the consequences could be bad.
- Firstly, other regions will Test us more. *By test i mean deliberately attack other nations.
-Secondly, it may seem very farfetched but regions might attack us and may have secret alliances etc...

I believe growth is certainly the way forward and as far as our involvement in the NationStates world goes, we are fine as we are.

Extending on New Boniventure's comments regarding older and newer nations (great points). We at Panthenia believe that as Senator it is our job to treat all nations the same regardless of whether they have experience or not. To our nation experience does not matter that much as every nation has to start somewhere whether that be Himes, New Parthini or Grub and they progress as they grow older.

Also as Senator (slightly away from the original debate, sorry!) I will make sure i will listen to everybody and inform Grub when needs be. I will make sure all UN proposals by nations from this region are displayed correctly and in the right manner on either the forum or the messageboard. I will make sure that all Resolutions that are proposed by nations in the 10000 Islands get noticed and hopefully passed.

Thank You
[shadow=red,left,300]The United Socialist States of Panthenia[/shadow]
[shadow=red,left,300]The Ambassador to The Trinity Republic[/shadow]

[Grub (Lenlyvit)]

I have a new debate question. I haven't done a very good job of getting someone to make and maintain the grand map of the 10000 Islands. While this isn't necessarily the job of a Senator, what would you, as Senator, do to help us find a map maker and finally get a good map made?

Grub

[Anceltierre]

In answer to this question, I say yes, we must indeed become more involved in the world of Nation States. However we must be courageous, and not throw any scent of fear to the mangy dogs of the underbelly of nation states. We must start trade with other regions,we must try to aide those in dire need,and we must establish our presence within our world. If elected I will try to do all these things and I will also try to improve the interior of our proud and noble region.

Thank you for listening and I hope for your support in the coming election.