Find out the truth about George W.

[Henneth annun]

Vitrionia said:

i agree, i don't believe that all europeans hate Bush, a fair majority do, and i really don't think that france hates the US, it's the other way round...

well they probably do now, because the US has a tendancy to slag them off and call them weak now... (not everyone does i know, but a few voices have been heard to speak)

personally henneth i don't actually understand your arguement nemore..

the UN did and does not support Saddam as a whole, there are leaders from most free world countries that have had connections with him... christ most of the missles he was using on us, we're ours at one point i'm sure..


no-one really slagged the US off either, it's a d**n fine country, just with some dodgy leadership issues at the moment...

i think we should all calm down at take a look at the facts in hand...

1) i don't think that french muslims are anymore inclined to hate the US than any other muslims in the world, and infact most of them (like the rest of the world) don't give a rats ass..

2) the US and the UK were wrong in the approach to the war, it was all done wrong, and all parties concered are paying for it now.

3) AFAIK germany hasn't left NATO, and probably won't.. but yes, it's allowed it's own miltary...(but i believe there is still quite a strong british military presence over there)

4) i don't think many europe gives a rat ass much about the US elections, all we worry is that they may effect us in an undesirable way

these generalisations have to stop now really guys? this debate isn't based on facts, just statistics and misinformation..

When Bush wen't to a confrence in Berlin in 2003, 1000's of German held signs outside that said "F*CK YOU BUSH!"

British Troops have tottally Withdrawn from germany and they have no troops for NATO!

The millitary Campaign in iraq was brillant! We just had a bad follow-up! But listen, Would you like Saddam back in power? That's essitally what you are saying!

[Rock McLargeHuge]

henneth catch :
www.nato.int/structur/countries.htm
note germany

www.army.mod.uk/aroundtheworld/ger/
note, the british army in germany home page

but for people who don't like to follow links

The United Kingdom provides the Framework Nation for the renowned Allied Rapid Reaction Corps (ARRC), with headquarters in Rheindalen. The British Army provides over 60% of the headquarters staff and two of the 10 division available to the Corps. This amounts to a total commitment of 55,000 troops, with just under half based in Germany.

and that's just our army..

i wouldn't want Saddam back in power any more that i liked the idea of a nation going across the UN to blow someone up... misinformation was rampant, and we lost at lot of our own troops to friendly fire...

[Rock McLargeHuge]

and on another not... the Kyoto agreement?

[Kellopalopalis]

What about the Kyoto agreement? There's not much to discuss. The consensus in the scientific community is that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Bush has managed to find some scientists who say it is not, just so that he doesn't have to restrict business. Therefore he has foregone the Kyoto Protocol.

[Heftig]

I just followed the ongoing discussion and I have to admit there were parts I couldn't stop laughing and other parts I could simply not believe...sad parts...very sad parts!

Almost everything Henneth annun said about Germany is not true!!! Sorry!

1. The German chancellor is named: Gerhard Schröder.

2. Germany is a sovereign country. (felt like I had to point that out)

3. Germany is member of the UN and the EU!
UN: Germany’s current UN policy is working towards a permanent membership of the Security Council.
EU: Germany works for a united and stable Europe within the European Union. First steps are already taken for some member states – the Euro, a single European currency. The next step is a stronger European government. Recently a European constitution was passed. The next step is a unified European foreign policy. At this is top priority right now throughout the whole EU.

4. Germany has no restrictions of any kind regarding the German military: Bundeswehr.

5.NATO: Germany is a member of the NATO since 1955 and has absolutely no intentions of leaving the NATO nor creating a different military pact!!! There are some military operations outside of NATO with fellow European countries. All of these are for practice purposes only. During 2003 an averaged number of 8000 soldiers permanently served outside of Germany in various military actions. All of these involvements are valid according to international law, based on the systems of the United Nations - which according to some people the Iraqi invasion was not - and verified by the German parliament.
Current involvements of the Bundeswehr:

- Enduring Freedom (UN and NATO): Fight against
international terrorism
The Bundesmarine is patrolling the African coast. Forces have also been in Afghanistan und Kuwait during this operation.
- ACTIVE ENDEAVOUR (NATO): Supporting NATO mission for Enduring Freedom.
- ISAF (UN: Coalition later NATO): Providing security for Afghanistan mainly in the areas of Kabul and Kunduz. Currently approximately 2700 German soldiers involved.
In 2003 Germany and Netherlands provided ISAF leadership until NATO took over.
- KFOR/SFOR (EU, NATO und OSCE): Security for Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Current involvement covers approximately 4500 German soldiers.
- UNOMIG (UN): Observer mission in Georgia and Abkhazia
- UNMEE (UN): Observer mission in Ethiopia and Eritrea
… That enough?

6. Relations to France: Germany has been fighting against France for generations. Recent wars were: the 1870/71 German-French war, WWI and of course WWII. On both sides millions of people died during these wars. The relations between the neighbouring countries have been very difficult in the past involving much hate and anger towards each other. In the 70th/ 80th the relations slowly improved. German chancellor Helmut Kohl and French prime minister Jacque Chirac met at a soldiers graveyard in Verdun. This was the symbolic gesture needed for reconciliation. Since then the German-French relations have stayed special but they are turning more and more into friendship. The two nations have realized that they are neighbours and have to depend on each other. In a growing Europe is no room for distrust. That is what makes the German-French relations special but not in a bad way anymore…
…Any French here who would like to add something?

7. Foreign military presence: In Frankfurt is the largest US military base outside the US. It is the main US airport in Europe. And this can be, because Germany is a member of the NATO and for no other reason. Our NATO friends have military bases in Germany. In the town where I live right now is a British military base and the German-Netherlands department (NATO).

8. Bush: Bush is a democratically elected leader of the US (although even this is being doubted by Americans like Michael Moore). Bushes election was, as we all know, very tight. It is the right of all Americans to dislike their elected leader, especially when almost half the American nation didn’t vote for this leader. This is democracy! If it is the right of every American to disapprove Bushes policies this is also the right of all non Americans, including the Germans. The public opinion in Germany is that there should have been a UN mandate before invading Iraque. And let us recall the events as they happened… Collin Powell tried hard to get a new UN resolution before the invasion. As they realized that this was impossible to achieve the US turned their back on the UN and just acted. What reasons did they give?

a) Iraque is supporting terror: The recently published commission report clearly states that there was absolutely no connection between Iraque and 9/11.
b) Weapons of mass destruction: Surprisingly to everybody the US did not find any sort of weapon able for mass destruction. Even now, where the US has access to the whole country nothing can be found. I believe that this is largely a failure of US intelligence. And I don’t think Bush knew… But shouldn’t there have been some more prove beforehand?
c) Freeing the country and bringing democracy: That is a reasonable intention, but did the people of Iraque really want that. If so why is there so much hate against the US in Irague? Why are the bombs still killing? Anyway…there should have been a UN mandate before taking action… Then the world could not turn its back on the US now… The international community would have to support the US actions…

I know that the reasons for war are most controversial and there might be some more… Hussein was a dictator and did extremely bad to his people… I can conclude saying: I’m glad he is gone, but I disapprove the way is was done.

I hope that I could help you to get some information about Germany and to give up some of your not very stable knowledge…

I don’t want to insult anybody by this post… and I know that it is quite possible to find arguments supporting Bushes actions… This is the way I feel about it!

Just needed to say that…
Heftig

[Rock McLargeHuge]

yay for heftig! i was starting to think i was going crazy :S

[RichfieldMN]

Henth please don't generalize about Europeans it is offensive. If you look at the polls in the US the country is split 50-50 over Bush and Kerry.

A lot of Europeans don't like Bush nor the policies of the US government and a lot of Europeans don't like Kerry either.

In Europe as you call it we are free to demonstrate against Bush and not hidden around a corner like in the US.

As Red and Whites put it Europe is a continent of independent nations of governments from left to right and with different opinions. Lumping all Europeans together is like lumping all Americans in North South Central and Caribean America.

The US was just as guilty of being allies with Sadam and supplying him with arms as some countries in Europe were. It does not mean they like Saddam just willing to make dollars by selling arms. The arms industry likes making money and does not care who it sells to.

[Cyper]

Hear Hear!!! The European countries all apllaud you!

[Heftig]

[Henneth annun]

Heftig said:

I just followed the ongoing discussion and I have to admit there were parts I couldn't stop laughing and other parts I could simply not believe...sad parts...very sad parts!

Almost everything Henneth annun said about Germany is not true!!! Sorry!

1. The German chancellor is named: Gerhard Schröder.

2. Germany is a sovereign country. (felt like I had to point that out)

3. Germany is member of the UN and the EU!
UN: Germany’s current UN policy is working towards a permanent membership of the Security Council.
EU: Germany works for a united and stable Europe within the European Union. First steps are already taken for some member states – the Euro, a single European currency. The next step is a stronger European government. Recently a European constitution was passed. The next step is a unified European foreign policy. At this is top priority right now throughout the whole EU.

4. Germany has no restrictions of any kind regarding the German military: Bundeswehr.

5.NATO: Germany is a member of the NATO since 1955 and has absolutely no intentions of leaving the NATO nor creating a different military pact!!! There are some military operations outside of NATO with fellow European countries. All of these are for practice purposes only. During 2003 an averaged number of 8000 soldiers permanently served outside of Germany in various military actions. All of these involvements are valid according to international law, based on the systems of the United Nations - which according to some people the Iraqi invasion was not - and verified by the German parliament.
Current involvements of the Bundeswehr:

- Enduring Freedom (UN and NATO): Fight against
international terrorism
The Bundesmarine is patrolling the African coast. Forces have also been in Afghanistan und Kuwait during this operation.
- ACTIVE ENDEAVOUR (NATO): Supporting NATO mission for Enduring Freedom.
- ISAF (UN: Coalition later NATO): Providing security for Afghanistan mainly in the areas of Kabul and Kunduz. Currently approximately 2700 German soldiers involved.
In 2003 Germany and Netherlands provided ISAF leadership until NATO took over.
- KFOR/SFOR (EU, NATO und OSCE): Security for Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Current involvement covers approximately 4500 German soldiers.
- UNOMIG (UN): Observer mission in Georgia and Abkhazia
- UNMEE (UN): Observer mission in Ethiopia and Eritrea
… That enough?

6. Relations to France: Germany has been fighting against France for generations. Recent wars were: the 1870/71 German-French war, WWI and of course WWII. On both sides millions of people died during these wars. The relations between the neighbouring countries have been very difficult in the past involving much hate and anger towards each other. In the 70th/ 80th the relations slowly improved. German chancellor Helmut Kohl and French prime minister Jacque Chirac met at a soldiers graveyard in Verdun. This was the symbolic gesture needed for reconciliation. Since then the German-French relations have stayed special but they are turning more and more into friendship. The two nations have realized that they are neighbours and have to depend on each other. In a growing Europe is no room for distrust. That is what makes the German-French relations special but not in a bad way anymore…
…Any French here who would like to add something?

7. Foreign military presence: In Frankfurt is the largest US military base outside the US. It is the main US airport in Europe. And this can be, because Germany is a member of the NATO and for no other reason. Our NATO friends have military bases in Germany. In the town where I live right now is a British military base and the German-Netherlands department (NATO).

8. Bush: Bush is a democratically elected leader of the US (although even this is being doubted by Americans like Michael Moore). Bushes election was, as we all know, very tight. It is the right of all Americans to dislike their elected leader, especially when almost half the American nation didn’t vote for this leader. This is democracy! If it is the right of every American to disapprove Bushes policies this is also the right of all non Americans, including the Germans. The public opinion in Germany is that there should have been a UN mandate before invading Iraque. And let us recall the events as they happened… Collin Powell tried hard to get a new UN resolution before the invasion. As they realized that this was impossible to achieve the US turned their back on the UN and just acted. What reasons did they give?

a) Iraque is supporting terror: The recently published commission report clearly states that there was absolutely no connection between Iraque and 9/11.
b) Weapons of mass destruction: Surprisingly to everybody the US did not find any sort of weapon able for mass destruction. Even now, where the US has access to the whole country nothing can be found. I believe that this is largely a failure of US intelligence. And I don’t think Bush knew… But shouldn’t there have been some more prove beforehand?
c) Freeing the country and bringing democracy: That is a reasonable intention, but did the people of Iraque really want that. If so why is there so much hate against the US in Irague? Why are the bombs still killing? Anyway…there should have been a UN mandate before taking action… Then the world could not turn its back on the US now… The international community would have to support the US actions…

I know that the reasons for war are most controversial and there might be some more… Hussein was a dictator and did extremely bad to his people… I can conclude saying: I’m glad he is gone, but I disapprove the way is was done.

I hope that I could help you to get some information about Germany and to give up some of your not very stable knowledge…

I don’t want to insult anybody by this post… and I know that it is quite possible to find arguments supporting Bushes actions… This is the way I feel about it!

Just needed to say that…
Heftig

Well, I admit I was generalizing, and Germany isn't that bad, I still think France is terrible and they have been good friends with saddam since they were young.

[Kellopalopalis]

Henneth said:

Well, I admit I was generalizing, and Germany isn't that bad, I still think France is terrible and they have been good friends with saddam since they were young.

I can't believe you would say that. France is a civilized, free, democratic country. Have we degressed to the McCarthy Era, or perhaps the Salem Witch Trials? The US is the one who has propped up so many dictatorships over the years, but I won't stoop to the level of saying we are friends with evil dictators.

[Kellopalopalis]

Dubya made another booboo:
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/bush.ap/index.html

[Heftig]

And for everyone who likes to make fun of politicians:

homepage.mac.com/krousen/Bush%20site/index.html

[Cyper]

Totally nice posts

[Otupia]

Henneth said:

When Bush wen't to a confrence in Berlin in 2003, 1000's of German held signs outside that said "F*CK YOU BUSH!"

British Troops have tottally Withdrawn from germany and they have no troops for NATO!

The millitary Campaign in iraq was brillant! We just had a bad follow-up! But listen, Would you like Saddam back in power? That's essitally what you are saying!

There was a study 70% of Europe hate bush

[aranisland]

ROFL

Thank you Heftig, thank you.

[Heftig]

And another funny link:

Sex for vote: Don't vote for George W. and get laid

[Otupia]

here check this out...

punkvoter.com/images/dls/FLYER-40reasons.pdf

[Echolilia]

This is it, I think:

www.gradis.net/xray.htm

[Woonsocket]

I KNEW it. There is no other way to explain his 8 years...

[Echolilia]

Sadly, requires flash, and flash is pretty dead. And I don't remember what this was.