Ethnic disaggregation

[Anime Daisuki]

I came across a good op/ed recently which I like to share. The author touched on the topic of ethnic diaggregation. In a nutshell, he observed that in the last hundred years or so empires and countries formerly consisting of multiple races and religions have broken up via ethnic lines, in the name of "self-determination". From the former Ottoman Empire a century ago to India 50 years ago to Kosovo last month. (Closer to home, Singapore and Malaysia separated under similar circumstances). More and more people are identifying themselves via race and religion.

The article is found here: www.newsweek.com/id/123473

An exerpt

Ethnic disaggregation in the name of "self-determination" must alarm Spain, which has separatist Basques. Greece, with assertive Albanians in its northern region, and Macedonia (another fragment of Yugoslavia), with a restive Albanian minority, cannot be pleased that Albanians in Kosovo have succeeded in making self-determination a synonym for independence. That concept could someday have interesting implications for southern Texas.

In a New York Times op-ed, Vuk Jeremic, Serbia's foreign minister, was too polite to dwell on the fact that the United States, which promptly recognized Kosovo's independence, has not always been so tolerant of the principle of secession. Jeremic noted that "the forced partition of internationally recognized, sovereign states" is an odd undertaking for the United Nations, particularly given that the 1999 Security Council resolution endorsed nothing more than "substantial autonomy and self-government" for Kosovo. Jeremic predicts that only about 40 of the almost 200 members of the United Nations will recognize Kosovo's independence.

This is worth discussing because it has so many implications, not just for Kosovo now but also for China and the US. States -- in fact, any remaining large nation with regions populated by a distinct ethnic group.

Are more breakups a sign that people are becoming less tolerant of each other? And will it lead to something worse?

-AD

[The Candy Lane]

this just supports wat ive been saying for a long time. MULTICULTURALISM DOESNT WORK.
by trying to make all cultures 'equal' u push one to the side and bring others to the front. u offend one and compliment the other causing more racism and anger towards other cultures.
pt.2 - Yes all cultures should work together, but that doesnt meen they have to live together.
pt. 3 - Tolerate is not a good word. In Canada 'citizens are encouraged to tolerate' other cultures, but tolerate simply meens u'll put up w/ them even if u dont like it.

As an example, in BC, Canada. a large political party has recently said that wenever a member leaves the party they will be replaced by a person belonging to an ethnic minority. So wen a white male leaves they have to be replaced by a female, or a black. This just pisses white ppl off b/c it discriminates against us - the majority.
If a white straight person leaves they have to be replaced by ie. a black, chinese, indian or gay person. So ur either pissin off the whites, the christians, the males... etc.

[Bletheropolis: the cat sleeps]

MULTICULTURALISM DOES WORK when you have a compliant or unconcerned citizenry under the rule of a generally benign, though autocratic government. you, the Govt. have to encourage the growth of a meritocratic society, which allows the TALENTED (or well connected) to succeed, so no one culture can say that they are being sidelined, as opportunities are afforded to all, at the level you can afford.

IMO.

[New Dracora]

I won't say that Australia is the perfect example of multi-culturalism or that individual sub-cultures don't have a tendency to hundle together but I will say that considering that because this nation's only form of culture IS multi-cuturalism and because, reality or not, that the national identity is BASED on multi-culturalism I seriously doubt that this country is in danger of breaking apart into seperate nations due to ethnicity.

To consider seriously that nations such as Australia, the US or Canada - which only have cultural histories of a few centuries at the most - are at the same risk of cultural conflict as in such regions as India, Europe, the Middle East and Asia - where seperate cultures have histories that go back millenia - is not only alarmist, but quite frankly laughable.

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

I think perhaps it's can be due to a fear of dilution of 'culture' or 'identity'. Britain is a good example. When you ask someone what they mean when they say they're british you won't always get a good answer. What is British culture? A binge drinking, football watching one. How do you identify yourself as being British? Again, a difficult one. Most commonly it's because you've lived here all your life, or most of your life.

But in places like Baghdad, it's interesting to note that there was some serious bifurcation between the Shia and Sunni districts. There were always areas of strong ethno-religious homogeneity, but those mixed districts have been completely destroyed.

Multiculturalism is a tricky one. When it comes to the rule of law, you should have just one set of laws to apply to everyone. We have a few exceptions to this, (Sikhs are allowed to wear their turbans on construction sites, rather than hard-hats) which is fine, but when you have the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury saying that he expects Sharia law to become part of British law then that is ridiculous. Either it would require everyone to be subject to it, or equally as ridiculous, it would create a two tiered system of legality. That's a dangerous concept.

Perhaps multiculturalism can overcome this but it's a rocky road.

[Enigmatic]

My thought about the US are very similiar to Dracora's on Australia. Part of our national identity is multi-culturalism. We've been called the "melting pot." I doubt that we will fight a war of disagregation any time in the future. Not to say that we won't as we did it once already. As a Southerner I know that the South still has a very strong regional identity. I think; however, that the fact we have gone through a civil war and come out a united nation on the other side helps to prevent another war from happening. Then of course you have the national unity that came out of the Spanish-American War, WWI, and WWII. But I won't go into that as it's lunch time for me and I'd probably just end up boring you.

[Noyzistan]

I, personally, do not believe the current political system in place around the world is the best system possible. In a moral, ideal world, there will be no government or borders. The break down of empires could possibly be a step in this direction, with each man being the king of his own castle. I don't want to bring up images of fortresses and knights and the middle ages all over again. But what I think is that when we are all answerable to ourselves for our own actions, the necessity of a policing force will be gone. Quite frankly, I'd like to see the world break down into smaller units down to the family or individual level. And when we are no longer tolerant of other races ruling our country we will have degressed so far that there will be the world and family "countries", each country no larger than a house and a yard (at best). And it is in this way that, I believe, multiculturalism will work best. :grin:

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

May 25, 2008 23:20:03 GMT -5 Noyzistan said:

I, personally, do not believe the current political system in place around the world is the best system possible. In a moral, ideal world, there will be no government or borders. The break down of empires could possibly be a step in this direction, with each man being the king of his own castle. I don't want to bring up images of fortresses and knights and the middle ages all over again. But what I think is that when we are all answerable to ourselves for our own actions, the necessity of a policing force will be gone. Quite frankly, I'd like to see the world break down into smaller units down to the family or individual level. And when we are no longer tolerant of other races ruling our country we will have degressed so far that there will be the world and family "countries", each country no larger than a house and a yard (at best). And it is in this way that, I believe, multiculturalism will work best. :grin:

It's not as ridiculously idealistic as it sounds. I believe there should be local administrative government in a global web. This way everyone is directly involved in the issues effecting them, everything is on a more face to face basis (to the extent that it can logistically be). Of course that would be a long way in the future in the terms that i see it, but in the medium term we need greater regionalism, the EU is a good example. Lots of smaller states are all under the protection of the EU, both physically and economically. At first these small nations are a drain, but in time become net donors to the EU budget, whilst building up their economies, infrastructure etc. Prosperity helps alleviate discontent. When things go badly, people fall back onto tribal lines. All too often these are race and religion. In South Africa you've got huge xenophobic riots at the moment. Tragic stuff...

[Estayland]

If you look at the situation in the Balkins with the former Yugoslavia, the various cultures are always clashing. Look at Israel with the Jews and Palestinians always fighting. The Kurdish area of Iran/Turkey, Kashmire of India/Pakistan, etc.

Maybe Candy Lane has it... work together but not live together.

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

well, whatever keeps the peace. But then peace isn't just an absence of conflict... I think there are other factors. Xenophobia and racism are very easy, and therefore ubiquitous. They seem to emerge during times of want and other problems. If we attempt to address these problems, whatever they may be then perhaps ethnic hatred will be a thing of the past... maybe.

[Anime Daisuki]

It won't be easy to remove racism. Scientific research suggest that racism is in our genes. We tend to subconciously identify people who are 'most likely our enemy' and 'most likely our friend" in times of crisis. Skin colour happen to be one of things our brain uses to make this identification. Fortunately, our concious mind overwrites that most of the time.

[Le Crochet]

May 26, 2008 13:39:23 GMT -5 Sinn Féin's Ireland said:

well, whatever keeps the peace. But then peace isn't just an absence of conflict... I think there are other factors. Xenophobia and racism are very easy, and therefore ubiquitous. They seem to emerge during times of want and other problems. If we attempt to address these problems, whatever they may be then perhaps ethnic hatred will be a thing of the past... maybe.

For this to work we would have to eliminate every problem in the world. As you say Racism and Xenophobia are easy and it's easy to blame another race/culture for anything that goes wrong in life.

People will always associate with people they feel most comfortable with. And whether we like it or not, the large majority of people feel more association with people who look like them. It's part of life and part of what helps us keep our own identity.

I think that is the crux of this whole issue. Identity. People have mistaken identifying yourself with one group more than another as being racist when it is not. I do not Identify or associate very well with the Mexicans I work with... does that mean I am a racist? No, it means that I don't identify with their culture. I don't hate them for it.

Most of the regions you have listed as centers for the problem have needed a larger power ruling them to keep tensions under control... (I admit to not knowing much about Singapore and Malaysia) But look at the Balkans. Whenever the current Superpower pulls out they split into their own little cultural groups and go about trying to play "Genocidal Warlord". They seem to need the singular ruling culture that everyone must associate with to maintain the peace. This is what comes out of Millenia of being ruled by one empire after another. The people know only how to identify to the ruling empire and those closest to them. We look at it from the outside and say "My god how can they kill their own people like that?" However on the inside they don't view them that way. They view them as a completely different group. It's this lack of cultural identity that is the root of the problems.

[Noyzistan]

May 26, 2008 14:36:29 GMT -5 Anime Daisuki said:

It won't be easy to remove racism. Scientific research suggest that racism is in our genes. We tend to subconciously identify people who are 'most likely our enemy' and 'most likely our friend" in times of crisis. Skin colour happen to be one of things our brain uses to make this identification. Fortunately, our concious mind overwrites that most of the time.

If any of you have seen the comedian Russell Peters, he quips on how hilarious it is that we (he's of Indian origin) have got the white people thinking they're racist. In truth it's actually pretty much the other way around. In India a north Indian will not hang out with a South Indian etc.

In addition to what AD said, I also think people just seek out others with the same interests. And as understanding requires common points of reference groups break down into these "common interest" groups.

Further, on pakistan/india. I believe that was a breakdown because of leadership. Individuals in leadership positions wanted power for themselves and they figured out that splitting it up into smaller pieces created more nations to "lead". On the ground, Pakistanis and Indians still feel like brothers.

[Anime Daisuki]

Common interest is important, as well as culture. I myself, for example, readily become friends with any Otaku, whatever their race or religion.

Adding to what Le Crochet said. I think the issue with certain groups (such as China-born-Chinese) is that they tend not to reach out as much as other groups. I realize I'm painting a broad stroke here, but from my observation some groups tend to stay within their own circles. This is nation specific rather than culture specific. For example, myself, though ethically Chinese, which should allow me to mix well with China-born-Chinese, find it easier to make friends with americans, thais, japanese, etc. It's just so difficult to break into their "circle". Language and communication is a problem, but not something that cannot be overcome. THe japanese for example, are more extroverted and many attempt to speak english with you even though they don't speak it well. Perhaps a socialogist can tell us why the difference of behavior... But I digress.

They seem to need the singular ruling culture that everyone must associate with to maintain the peace. This is what comes out of Millenia of being ruled by one empire after another. The people know only how to identify to the ruling empire and those closest to them. We look at it from the outside and say "My god how can they kill their own people like that?" However on the inside they don't view them that way.

I think we're on to something here - the point that different races view the issue of nationhood or the lack of differently. The same refrain has been made by the East (China in particular but also most non-western nations) that they view democracy differently.

[New Dracora]

This was shown on the news tonight and I believe it belongs here....