Israel or Palestine?

[Estayland]

Whose land is it and why?

[Ubeki beki beki beki stan stan]

This is a toughie...Legally, I suppose it is Israel's, because I think the UN gave it to them in 1947 or something. Morally, though, I feel that they both have a fairly decent claim to it.

[Noyzistan]

i got this picture elsewhere. All that I'd like to draw attention to are the two in the middle. The one on the left is the UN mandated borders, the on in the middle to the right are the present day borders.

I believe most of us would agree that Isreal and Palestine BOTH need to exist. The present problem is where do we draw the borders?

[Ubeki beki beki beki stan stan]

Yes, but therein lies the real problem. Since the region is filled with holy cities for Christians, Jews, and Muslims, there would be a real argument over who got which holy cities. If I remember correctly, it is Jerusalem that is holy for all three religions, correct? How could Israel and Palestine come to an agreement over a city holy to them both?

[Arotianis]

Yes, I agree with Noyz, there needs to be both an Israeli state and a Palestinian one, the problem is where one country ends and the other begins.

[Petalumadom]

Jun 13, 2008 13:47:22 GMT -5 Ubeki beki beki beki stan stan said:

Yes, but therein lies the real problem. Since the region is filled with holy cities for Christians, Jews, and Muslims, there would be a real argument over who got which holy cities. If I remember correctly, it is Jerusalem that is holy for all three religions, correct? How could Israel and Palestine come to an agreement over a city holy to them both?

It has been proposed that they split Jerusalem... But that causes more problems...

[Ubeki beki beki beki stan stan]

Jun 13, 2008 17:03:06 GMT -5 Petalumadom said:

Jun 13, 2008 13:47:22 GMT -5 Ubeki beki beki beki stan stan said:

Yes, but therein lies the real problem. Since the region is filled with holy cities for Christians, Jews, and Muslims, there would be a real argument over who got which holy cities. If I remember correctly, it is Jerusalem that is holy for all three religions, correct? How could Israel and Palestine come to an agreement over a city holy to them both?

It has been proposed that they split Jerusalem... But that causes more problems...

t
Yes, that's been brought up a lot, but Israel always rejects it.

I'm tired of conflict in the Middle East. Why can't they all just get along...? Goodness, the UN should just ban war already. Blech.

[Noyzistan]

so here's the question on borders. Which borders should they adopt;
1) UN mandate 1947 (second picture from the left), or
2) present day borders (second picture from the right)?

[Anime Daisuki]

I don't think its realistic to go back to the 1947 mandate, i.e. they follow the UN drawn borders. Because Israel will not even accept the Arab Peace Initiative requiring them to give up territories gained in 1967, how will they agree to cede more territories (and go back) to the map of 1947?

Unless of course, the US forces Israel, which has as much a chance as a the sun rising from the west.

[Noyzistan]

That is definitely true!
But let's forget about what might happen, or what will happen.

I believe this thread was to discuss what the correct thing to do would be. Sadly enough, the correct decision is not always the decision that is made.

[Ubeki beki beki beki stan stan]

Hey Noyz, you focused our attention on the two maps in the middle. What are the other two on the outside? I'm curious.

[Noyzistan]

I believe the one on the extreme left was the post world war two concentration of palestinians in the region.
The picture on the extreme right shows the parts of the west bank and Gaza that were under Israeli occupation until September of 2005.

[Ubeki beki beki beki stan stan]

Jun 14, 2008 4:43:25 GMT -5 Noyzistan said:

I believe the one on the extreme left was the post world war two concentration of palestinians in the region.
The picture on the extreme right shows the parts of the west bank and Gaza that were under Israeli occupation until September of 2005.

Oh OK.

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

I'll keep this short, though of course the solution has no hope of being as succinct and easy.


The land used to be Palestinian, it was taken away from them and given to the Israelis. This was morally reprehensible, and should, as far as possible, be reversed. It is the Palestinians' land.

Unfortunately there have now been a couple of generations of israelis born there, and as far as those generations are concerned, it is their homeland, and just their home. This also gives Israelis an equal claim to the same land.

I don't think that's a particularly controversial view to hold.

What i think is slightly more baffling is that whilst the Jews faced horrendous persecution at the hands of Nazis and pretty much everyone for the last 2000 years, just a few years and decades later they're handing out the same apartheid treatment to an indigenous population within their borders. It's truly baffling.

Of course, i sympathise as equally with the Israelis who face security threats as a result of palestinian Militia, but come on, if you oppress a people, call them terrorists, ghettoise them, take their land, and build huge concrete walls across their farms and towns then of course you're going to face resistance. If you then proceed to cut off their power, prevent aid and supplies getting in, and then attempt to convince the world that this is quite legitimate behaviour then you're onto a lose-lose situation.



In conclusion, the land must belong to both, so either that means a single state, or 2 state solution, with Jerusalem as a shared capital, neither of which are baggage-free solutions.

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

Jun 13, 2008 18:57:29 GMT -5 Noyzistan said:

so here's the question on borders. Which borders should they adopt;
1) UN mandate 1947 (second picture from the left), or
2) present day borders (second picture from the right)?

Most people suggest a return to the 1967 borders, as they were after the farcical six day war. That's probably fair. What needs to happen is the removal of the peacelines, the evacuation of most of the settlements, and then to consider how Jerusalem can be most cordially shared.

[Isles of Nixon]

On this point Sinn is unfortunately mistaken. In a utopian society, without any discussion of what has transpired in the last forty years, I could see his point.

The Palestinians need to act like humans and not terrorists before we can take them seriously. I believe they should have their own territory but they have to declare a ceasefire and become humans first. Continuing to blow up innocent civilians doesn't do anything for their cause, it only enrages Israel and the United States further. Over the past few years people make the comparison between Israel and the situation in the north of Ireland but what people forget is that based on most definitions, the Provisional Irish Republican Army did not engage in terrorism as all of their sanctioned attacks were on military outposts. There were unsanctioned attacks on civilians, yes, but peace was only achieved once the guns became silent.

If the Palestinians want to end their terrorist campaign and denounce Hamas, excellent, a solution will be able to come of it but until they do, they deserve no land.

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

Jun 14, 2008 15:44:18 GMT -5 Isles of Nixon said:

On this point Sinn is unfortunately mistaken. In a utopian society, without any discussion of what has transpired in the last forty years, I could see his point.

The Palestinians need to act like humans and not terrorists before we can take them seriously. I believe they should have their own territory but they have to declare a ceasefire and become humans first. Continuing to blow up innocent civilians doesn't do anything for their cause, it only enrages Israel and the United States further. Over the past few years people make the comparison between Israel and the situation in the north of Ireland but what people forget is that based on most definitions, the Provisional Irish Republican Army did not engage in terrorism as all of their sanctioned attacks were on military outposts. There were unsanctioned attacks on civilians, yes, but peace was only achieved once the guns became silent.

If the Palestinians want to end their terrorist campaign and denounce Hamas, excellent, a solution will be able to come of it but until they do, they deserve no land.

Hamas are democratically elected. It wasn't rigged. People probably just voted for them out of desperation and because they were sick of fatah's venality. It was a desperate plea for help and a scream of anger which the western, hypocritical world ignored.

By ignoring Hamas, by refusing to let them enter the talks process which Bush began with Annapolis in November, we are further marginalising the voice of an already tongueless community.

You mention Northern Ireland. Well, Sinn Féin are not terrorists, though some members of Sinn Féin undoubtedly were. None the less, the talks process only got going properly once the decision was made to include them in the peace process, rather than keeping them in the cold. Funny how things all started to work once they were included.

Palestinians probably want peace more than any others, but by locking them constantly into the dynamic of warfare, deprivation, and regular familial devastation, and then denying them a voice on the world stage (Mahmoud Abbas is not a mandated representative of most Palestinians in Gaza) the only recourse is violence, or to give up. Whether or not you consider the IRA to be terrorists or not is a moot point, but the important thing is that they saw no alternative to violence. It is always a last resort.

You say the Palestinians are behaving like animals. Those who fire rockets to kill are, yes. It is uncondonable, but still understandable.

Just because you dress up Israeli terrorism in an IDF uniform and an armani suit doesn't make it any less terrorising. It just means they have more advanced means of destroying communities, and destroying lives.

America has to stop backing Israel over this matter. There's nothing wrong with wanting security for a friendly nation amidst a sea of perceived hostility. Unfortunately the best road to peace is to end the siege of Gaza and the West bank and get everyone round the negotiating table. Without this there will be no peace. Not in the next couple of centuries at least. We must deal with that fact or de-sensitise ourselves even further to the murder that goes on every day in Israel.

[Isles of Nixon]

Hamas is a sponsor of terrorism and until they drop their guns and start acting like real humans and not pure evil, we won't make any concessions to them. Israel is a real democracy, they are a community of peace-loving people who have struggled for hundreds and even thousands of years. There are those, who Palestinians and Hamas supports by the way, who want to wipe Israel off the face of the planet - utterly disgusting and should not and will not be tolerated.

America must stand by Israel for they are the human beings in this equation and not barbarians. At the most desperate time, those who keep their composure are the ones who will benefit in the end. Those who lob rockets aimed at civilians are not going to be negotiated with, or should they be. Why should someone be rewarded for such violence and hatred? If Palestinians really want peace, they will drop their arms and denounce every violent act. Palestinian terrorism has gone on and on and on in the region for decades and until it stops, the IDF has every right to defend their citizens.

[New Dracora]

I don't think either side has claim anymore. They've had 2,000+ years now to learn how to co-exist and have failed miserably. I mean ffs - two freaking millenia of throwing stones at each other. Time for the UN to step in, take away all the power from the feuding children and make the holy lands an internationally recognised 'no mans land' under direct UN administration.

[Noyzistan]

Jun 15, 2008 7:38:16 GMT -5 New Dracora said:

I an international... 'no mans land'

lolz. First time I've heard that idea. :grin:

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

Finally America takes a first step towards a decent position on Israel: Condolizza Rice condemned the plans for a few thousand more houses in the illegal Israeli settlements in the west bank.

[Anime Daisuki]

Jun 15, 2008 7:38:16 GMT -5 New Dracora said:

I don't think either side has claim anymore. They've had 2,000+ years now to learn how to co-exist and have failed miserably. I mean ffs - two freaking millenia of throwing stones at each other. Time for the UN to step in, take away all the power from the feuding children and make the holy lands an internationally recognised 'no mans land' under direct UN administration.

lol I like this idea. If I may add, jews will be forcefully relocated to, say, the middle of the pacific, where we'll make an island for them, while the palestinians will live in the middle of the atlantic. Now they're on opposite ends of the world, they won't be able to fight. ;D

[Noyzistan]

with america in the middle? They'll keep throwing rocks, it just won't reach the other side...

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

A decent solution...perhaps, though ultimately unworkable.

[New Dracora]

Jun 17, 2008 6:51:04 GMT -5 Sinn Féin's Ireland said:

A decent solution...perhaps, though ultimately unworkable.

Heh, there is that - plus the fact I got the idea from somewhere (can't find the site anymore - overly popular subject it would seem) a while back where this solution was presented as the "seven year peace plan" that ultimately ends with the Great Tribulation......................

;D

[The Candy Lane]

Jun 16, 2008 14:03:09 GMT -5 Anime Daisuki said:

Jun 15, 2008 7:38:16 GMT -5 New Dracora said:

I don't think either side has claim anymore. They've had 2,000+ years now to learn how to co-exist and have failed miserably. I mean ffs - two freaking millenia of throwing stones at each other. Time for the UN to step in, take away all the power from the feuding children and make the holy lands an internationally recognised 'no mans land' under direct UN administration.

lol I like this idea. If I may add, jews will be forcefully relocated to, say, the middle of the pacific, where we'll make an island for them, while the palestinians will live in the middle of the atlantic. Now they're on opposite ends of the world, they won't be able to fight. ;D

lol thats awesome