Turkey...EU?

[Petalumadom]

In my own opinion... not any time soon...

They have rampant poverty and you have to pay to use the bathrooms at public sites. How messed up is that?

Aside from that... their enormous problem with civil rights etc. The fact that Greece hates the Turks because of what they've done to them (Greece says they will resign from the EU if Turkey joins). The even disputable part of whether Turkey can be considered European. The threat of massive migrations of millions of poor immigrant workers to the already flooded areas populated by wandering Albanians. As I mentioned before... their horrible economy (not bad compared to most countries in that area though). And possibly most important is their low Religious Freedoms.

The Orthodox church which is the second largest branch of Christianity has it's head honcho in Constantinople (Istanbul) he's not like the Pope with infallibility etc. but he is considered the "First among Equals" of the Patriarchs. Currently The Patriarchate is not recognized by the Turkish government as the "Ecumenical" Patriarch (meaning he is the head of the Orthodox Church)... Furthermore. They closed down the last Seminary in Turkey many years ago and will not allow them to re-open it. Then they only allow the Patriarch to be Turkish born.

Now think about this... 1. Can't educate your Patriarch in Turkey. 2. Your Patriarch has to be Turkish... a bit of a problem no?

To further this over the years the Turks have taken much of the Churches property. They forbid them to build new churches. They will often refuse permits to even restore old churches. They have continually refused permits to fix the Patriarchs orphanage, one of the largest and oldest wooden buildings in Europe and so it is falling apart. The Patriarch, priests, deacons, etc. are not allowed to wear their traditional black robes in public...

So basically... they have to get their act together... and although I will not say I would never let Turkey in the EU... definitely not anytime soon...

[Alfonia]

First of all, Turkey is european, whether we like it or not;

- Its history is the same as the history of europe, with the Ottoman empire in mind; the turks controlled the balkans for a very long time, and they certainly left behind much. The turkish state has since its beginning struggled to identify with europe and has doene it reasonably well, especially when compared with its neighbours.

- Turkey, is although partially, geographically in Europe: Cyprus, a member of the EU, is not. Sarkozy said something idiotic along the lines of "Turkey is not european, it's in the middle east", I just think it's funny to note that a sizeable portion of France is located in South America; as such, it's divided between two continents just like Turkey is. The same could be said about Denmark, which is divided between North America and Europe; and Norway, which is divided between Europe and Antarctica and although not a member; wouldn't be refused entry on basis of geography.

- As for race, origin, religion: the EU already has more ethnic turkish inhabitants than it has Danes, Norwegians, Finns, Estonians, Latvians, San Marinese, Swedish, Lithuanian (etc.) inhabitants. Those who would be silly enough to bring up the race argument should be put off by this. Those who argue that the turks' origin is too asian, might need to do some reading on the origins of the finns and hungarians. Those who claim Islam has no place in Europe would have to explain why Bosnia and Albania shouldn't be able to join if they wanted to as well.

- As for the Greeks: Turkey is important for the future safety of europe: The greeks may whine about leaving but how much more would they like a turkish neighbour that has turned into an islamist state? This problem could be very real if the world continues to develop in a not very improbable way. The French and Germans buried the hatchet; as have the Irish and English, the Swedes and Danes, the English and French, The Poles and Germans, the Italians and Austrians... Why should the greeks be any worse? The EU is not old europe; it's new europe.


Given all these arguments; I find it utterly impossible to refuse Turkey a membership; provided that they can meet the normal standards for a EU member.

- Even though nations like the UK seem to be exempt from the rule that regulates how badly you can treat people of other countries (human rights abuses in Iraq and the war on terror, the terrorist branding of Iceland, and so on), the EU demands that of its members and so turkey should follow. The mistreatment of the kurds and armenians has got to stop. It's strange though, that virtually no one raised voices about the maltreatment of gypsies in some eastern european EU countries; or - even though these examples will be ones of far less magnitude than the kurds' situation in Turkey - the maltreatment of afghan refugees at the hands of the Greeks, or mistreatment of african guest workers by the Italians, or the mistreatment of illegal immigrants at the hands of my own countrymen.

- To say that Turkey has problems in the religious freedoms department is true; but it's important to note that the state in itself isn't likely to favour any religion. Instead, they oppress most of them rather equally; for example, muslim women holding public office are not allowed to wear a veil at work. However the treatment of the patriarch and orthodox church is wrong of course, and it has to stop.

- As for the economy; there's a fair chance that it will benefit from membership; and the immigrant flood argument was used when the eastern european states joined too; and it did not happen. But of course Turkey should have to meet the same requirements as all the other nations.

So basicly my point is that, no, Turkey is not a nation that could, or should, join the EU next year; they should work on correcting some very serious issues first. However, Europe should perhaps start acting less holy and superior when dealing with Turkey; as the debate has bordered on racism and cultural imperialism many times; and we always forget that we're not the best people in the world either. After all we enslaved most of it and brought about two world wars; and even though we've forgiven ourselves for it, I'm not sure the world has.

[Petalumadom]

Ok, I agree with most everything you said...

Except at the end... remember Turkey was a major Axis power and not innocent bystanders... EDIT: (in WW1)

I don't think Greece will just forget just because they were occupied by the Turks for 400 years. And they came out with their language, their faith and their traditions. That is just a small example of Greek stubbornness... although being in the EU for what... 7 years or so has destroyed more of their culture and language than 400 years of Ottoman occupation... but that is for the globalization thread

[Lassiem]

Nov 3, 2008 1:38:14 GMT -5 Petalumadom said:

They have rampant poverty and you have to pay to use the bathrooms at public sites. How messed up is that?

Sounds like France

[Alfonia]

Well I don't think it's fair to refer to turkey as an axis power, since as you said we're talking world war one here. Rather, an ally to the central powers is more correct. As for bathroom fees, I think it's rather common in europe... I've encountered it in Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Turkey, Denmark; I'm not sure about England though. Worth to mention is that I found the bathrooms in turkish public sites to be less... eh... comfortable than the ones in the aforementioned countries, but I think it's more a question of individual bathrooms than a national toilet standard. Turkish toilets tend, however, to have built in bidets with painfullly cold water in them; that, if anything, is evil.

I just came up with an excellent argument for turkey to join the EU by the way... food! Is it possible to grow tired of grilled lamb with herbs&garlic&yoghurt&tomato sauce in different variations? I think not! Although some of the worse "naturalized" Döner shops in western Europe do their best to drag that reputation down... that's true. How come the greeks and turks have to fight? They could merge and form the world's geatest culinary superpower! Imagine, a dish with combined souvlaki, sis kebab, or a combined moussaka and iskender kebap... And oh, greek/turkish coffee; is there a difference? Damn it's good... And ouzo and raki... and excessive use of the olives and... aah no wait. I'm off topic. And very hungry. I'm off to get some food!

[Petalumadom]

All the foods and drinks you mentioned were created by the Greeks...

"Is it possible to grow tired of grilled lamb with herbs&garlic&yoghurt&tomato sauce in different variations?"

Of course not... it's called a Gyro! ;D mmmmm *makes yummy noise*

Yeah, my bad about the central powers and axis thing...

You had to love the Turkish currency though (I was last there in 04 and they have since re-evaluated it) but it cost millions of Lyra for anything... and the best part... the 20,000,000 Lyra bill (which was their highest bill) was worth about $12

So paying for anything big in cash was a pain...

But it's cool to be a millionaire all the time.

;D

[Alfonia]

haha yes, and even the street beggars wouldn't accept the lowest valued coins... I wasn't payign attention in the bazaar and was given one of those million-lira bills as change. Tough luck but i kept it as a souvenir and it's still around here... uh... somewhere!

Well about the Gyros... gyros is not made out of lamb; it's a pork and occasionally a chicken dish; and it was developed from the turkish dish Döner kebab (which for obvious reasons has no pork in it); whose origin can be traced directly to the turkish town of Bursa; evidence of this is that gyros was previously known as döner in greece as well. As for iskender Kebap; it's named after its inventor; who was called Iskender; had iskender been greek, his name would have been Alexander;) (interestingly, there is a greek fast food joint near here that insists on calling their version of it an "alexander kebab", got to love nationalism... I don't know which I prefer of the two really; I might actually opt for the candidate from former yugoslavia; the cevapcici!

I heard that the name Gyros is more common in the USA, and I guss it makes sense since it's a word that's more compatible with english. though I read gyros in the states often use lamb or beef; which would make them closer to Döner Kebab, and also make the situation over there the exact opposite of what we have in sweden; where pork is very commonly used (as in gyros) but it's almost universally referred to as kebab.

From what I've seen, in france, the common name is "greek sandwich" or just "greek"; while in germany, the name Döner seems dominant. Talk about a food export anyhow; it's rather remarkable that it has spread so widely - especially considering its impractical nature; you can't make just a little, it quickly becomes unhygienic, it requires a lot of equipment (compared with burgers and sausages anyhow) and quite much skill from the maker (if it's traditional). I think the big point is you can't grow tired of it, so i'll second that yummy sound. Ah the food... can we discuss france next? Boeuf bourgignon aaahahahahahhhhhhhh...

As for moussaka and souvlaki; I won't challenge their greekness, and their combination with the above mentioned turkish dishes - that are indeed turkish as far as I can see - would make for the best combination ever; i would very much think so anyway. (excluding swedish food of course; but no wonder; when it comes to food, i think we're all nationalists first, and travellers second)

As for the coffee, an arabian lady once politely told me that it's neither greek, nor turkish; but arabic, and that it was invented by Muhammed himself! I think this is quite easily proven false though;) but it makes for a nice story especially considering it's so good; it's sadly quite hard to come by here; especially since i prefer to buy it unroasted. I wonder if there are any foods attributed to Jesus or Buddha. Didn't buddha die of a tragic food accident by the way?

[Petalumadom]

Haha...

You must remember that all of the Territories Alexander the Great conquered are still considered Greek by the Greeks and so Muhammad himself was almost Greek!

So yep... the world is really only made up of Greeks and everyone else who just wishes they were.

On a more serious note keep in mind that the coastal regions of modern Turkey have been considered (seriously) Greek territories for thousands of years. Before the Turks brilliant idea of the exchange of populations... where they got to kick out all the wealthy Greeks and keep their money while the Greeks would then be allowed to kick out the poor Turkish beggars and send them back to Turkey... There were many thriving Greek ports along the coast, most prominently, modern Izmir which was called Smyrna at the time... It was an extremely wealthy merchant city... But the Turks decided it had to go...

Anyway... that is actually where I got my second main nation's name from (on NS) "Nea" meaning "new" Smyrna... ;D

[Chronopolice]

It is possible that Turkey will be admitted to the Union if they meet the criteria in the near-future.

[Alfonia]

There some strong opposition to this; especially from the populist far right in many european countries (who are not powerful enough to stop it, but certainly powerful enough to make a lot of noise); also, France under Sarkozy has been very sceptical to the idea of Turkey ever becoming a member.

A strong argument against Turkish membership that isn't necessarily based on ethnicity, culture or religion; is that it would greatly shift the power balance in the EU, since the number of votes the countries get in parliament is based on their populations. Turkey has no less than 70 million inhabitants, which would make it the second most powerful nation of the EU in this aspect. To give a nation that is so far behind economically and to top things off is known for its patriotism that already have bordered on stupidity many times that much power, is worrying.

Personally, I don't care so much anymore; the EU is already so big that the thought of every decision to be good for the distant little corner of it that my ancestors strangely enough chose to inhabit is unrealistic. That's why I'd favour a nordic union rather than a European one, then again, that's another discussion entirely too ^^

And to comment on greeks being moved from what is today considered turkish soil; this is correct; but it doesn't make the inventors of certain foods greek, even if they moved into the area.

[velias]

Turkey HAVE the right to be in Eu