Yes, and the UK stated about 2 weeks ago that the health care system can not progress as it is because it will bankrupt. I lived under UK health care for 26 years and paid a large amount of my weekly pay into it. The treatment was awful.
The only way to effectively fund it is with punitive taxes. The only people who win are those that have nothing, and they then have a bigger incentive to stay there.
Posts: 7,548
Likes: 60
XKI Generation: The Great Quake Generation XKI Map Nation Color: Top Left XKI NS Join Year: 140 - Sunday, 28 November 2010 Historical XKI Political Party: TIP - The Islands Party Ancient House of: Ananke
Post by Tsim Sha Tsui on Oct 24, 2013 20:49:29 GMT -5
I don't know about the argument that high taxes only benefit the poor. Scandinavia has famously high taxes, matched by a famously high standard of living. On the other hand, the United States has some of the lowest taxes in the developed world (we're 4th lowest among OECD member states), but individuals spend a lot more on things like health and childcare and we have one of the world's biggest rich/poor divides. I'm not saying we should become like Scandinavia, of course, I'm just saying that high taxes ≠ bad and low taxes ≠ good.
Last Edit: Oct 24, 2013 20:50:28 GMT -5 by Tsim Sha Tsui
"No one starts a war; or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so; without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it." - Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz
Posts: 19,248
Likes: 204
XKI Generation: The New Taco Generation XKI NS Join Year: 178 - Monday, 7 January 2013 Historical XKI Political Party: MSPP - Mayor Shelter Political Party Ancient House of: Wordiness
Hence my point about tax code reform. We all recognize the tax code is bloated and overly complicated, and any business with an accountant worth their pay is generally due no tax at the end of the year.
The number of corporations that conveniently have an office in Barbados or the cayman Islands is startling.
Any government can only sustain expensive programs if they have enough revenue. The US is spending beyond its means and has done so for many years. It spends money to support a community that has no intention of getting a job, and because of that support needs no job. We have illegal immigrants working for farmers under the table, with the farmers being paid not to grow certain things...
The government is currently so ridiculous that you can make up a story and have it so compelling that there is a use for fact checking services, and a wise man checks the story with more than one fact checker service before saying anything (proving once again my lack of wisdom).
Is it any wonder we need to continually extend the spending limit? So we have a few "extremist' that are screaming stop the madness. The instant result for the only sane thing to be said in Washington in a long time? Unleash the media and paint these people (with the words of administration officials) as terrorists with bombs strapped to their chest.
I give the democrats huge credit for being able to play the media like a virtuoso.
Posts: 7,548
Likes: 60
XKI Generation: The Great Quake Generation XKI Map Nation Color: Top Left XKI NS Join Year: 140 - Sunday, 28 November 2010 Historical XKI Political Party: TIP - The Islands Party Ancient House of: Ananke
Post by Tsim Sha Tsui on Oct 25, 2013 11:01:37 GMT -5
Oh, don't get me started on agriculture subsidies... but if you eliminated them (and/or the migrant workforce), food costs would rise and that would piss off voters. (Plus the whole myth of the American family farm makes gives the agricultural lobby a powerful weapon.)
I'm interested to see what the Ryan-Murray budget conference committee comes up with. Representative Ryan and Senator Murray are two of the smartest people in Congress, and after the '95/'96 shutdowns we had the first (and last) four balanced budgets in forever. My only concern is that the previously mentioned far-right wing of the GOP is somewhat... averse to deal making. They want the metaphorical sausage, but they object to the entire process of metaphorical sausage-making.
One last thing: with all the ire towards President Obama, it's worth noting that it was President Bush that wiped away the surplus and set us on this destructive economic path. President Obama certainly deserves his share of responsibility for not turning it around, but the "Tea Party" lacks credibility as a fiscal watchdog considering they couldn't be bothered until there was a Democrat (and, based on a lot of the signs at Tea Party rallies, a minority) in the White House. I would love for more Americans to care about government in general and the budget in particular, but nothing good comes from the kind of anger you see in the far-right these days.
Last Edit: Oct 25, 2013 11:03:31 GMT -5 by Tsim Sha Tsui: Spelling & Grammar
"No one starts a war; or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so; without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it." - Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz
Posts: 7,548
Likes: 60
XKI Generation: The Great Quake Generation XKI Map Nation Color: Top Left XKI NS Join Year: 140 - Sunday, 28 November 2010 Historical XKI Political Party: TIP - The Islands Party Ancient House of: Ananke
Post by Tsim Sha Tsui on Oct 25, 2013 15:59:08 GMT -5
The far left is probably as enthusiastic about making deals as the far right: not very. But the far left has a much smaller impact on the Democratic Party than the far right has on the Republican Party. The Leftist equivalents of the Tea Party do not participate in national politics in any meaningful way... they are far more likely to be involved with fringe parties ranging from the almost-sorta-mainstream Green Party to the innumerable (and often completely-out-there) Socialist parties. Or, more likely, they don't bother to vote at all.
It's hard to argue that it's the Democrats that are being obstructionist. The number of delays that the GOP minority in the Senate has punitively leveled against the President's appointments is unprecedented. The ACA was greatly watered down from by the Administration in an unsuccessful attempt to attract bipartisan support, despite the Democrats controlling both houses of Congress and the White House. The Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012 made most of the Bush tax cuts permanent. The President appointed Republicans to his cabinet. (He tried to have three in his first term, an unprecedented number, but the Senate stopped one.) Back before the climate got so poisonous, Republicans were constantly being consulted by the White House, even when they were the minority. I mean, seriously, for a guy often accused of being a socialist by his detractors on the right, President Obama is just as often accused by the left of being a huge disappointment.
Last Edit: Oct 25, 2013 16:00:06 GMT -5 by Tsim Sha Tsui: Spelling & Grammar
"No one starts a war; or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so; without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it." - Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz
I agree that he has a lot of detractors. The fact is though that Harry Reed and President Obama have both stated publically that there is no compromise on AHCA, a law that was passed with a procedural vote rather than following the traditional path. We are talking about a 1700 page document that the house majority at the time suggested that it was best to pass it before reading it.
I'm not saying there aren't those on the right that won't compromise, but I am pointing at the top 3 democrats who are presently standing with a no compromise attitude. Maybe there was cooperation in the beginning, but there seems to be none now.
Posts: 7,548
Likes: 60
XKI Generation: The Great Quake Generation XKI Map Nation Color: Top Left XKI NS Join Year: 140 - Sunday, 28 November 2010 Historical XKI Political Party: TIP - The Islands Party Ancient House of: Ananke
Post by Tsim Sha Tsui on Oct 25, 2013 18:10:47 GMT -5
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea it the ACA was only passed on a procedural vote. The Senate voted for it 60 to 39, while the House voted 219 to 212 in favor. Now, a lot of people held out hope that when Scott Brown won the special election he would somehow be able to kill the Senate bill. (Which had not yet passed the House.) But the Senate had already voted, and an election does not erase previous votes. House Democrats (who wanted a more liberal bill) correctly decided they had no choice but to either accept the Senate bill or start from scratch.
If you want to talk about gaming the rules, look at Speaker Boehner's moves to prevent a vote on a "clean" budget here on C-SPAN: www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4467486 . He knew enough moderate Republicans would join Democrats to avert the shutdown, so he changed the rules.
Finally, I find it hard to believe that any President would agree to gut his signature legislation, let alone a President with the backing of Senate. And the GOP proposal wasn't a negotiation. A negotiation is supposed to allow for a middle ground, and the middle ground between "full funding" and "no funding" is... funding. Answer me this: a future Republican president passes massive entitlement reform with the backing of both houses and two years later the Democrats take the House. Would the Democrats be justified in demanding a full restoration of the previously eliminated entitlements or they will shut the government down and cause the nation to default?
"No one starts a war; or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so; without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it." - Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz
Posts: 13,149
Likes: 981
XKI Generation: The New Taco Generation XKI Map Nation Color: Red XKI NS Join Year: 179 - Sunday, 27 January 2013 Historical XKI Political Party: TIP - The Islands Party Ancient House of: Aersoldorf
Post by Witchcraft and Sorcery on Oct 26, 2013 19:39:15 GMT -5
Oh, and speaking of rule changes, is that footage the one about where no one could propose a bill to end the shutdown but the speaker?
It was something like that. My debate team was talking about this procedural nonsense the other day, and yes Cerb, it certainly does go both ways. I agree with you there.
The Right Honourable Witchcraft and Sorcery, Leader of the Taco Island Senate
House of Aersoldorf. Defender. WA Delegate of the Order of the Grey Wardens.
82nd Knight of TITO - TITO Knight Master Commander - Former Senator, TITO TO, TIP Chairman, and University Dean