Debt Ceiling/ Government Shutdown

[Mal]

Okay.... As someone who was directly impacted by it, I',m wondering how my fellow citizens feel about the government shutdown that just ended?

As you may or may not be aware, we have not had a proper budget since 2011. The government has been operating on a sries of Continuing Resolutions, which give the Executive Branch agencies temporary funds to operate ntil a new CR is passed. CRs are supposed to be temporary so that a proper budget can be worked out.

The last few CRs, the House basically held something hostage so as to force the President to give up something in order to fund the government for a short while. As most of you will recall, the shutdown was a result of certain Republicans thinking that they could force the President and the Democrats to agree to defund the Affordable Care Act (a/k/a Obamacare). When it became clear the President and the Dems weren't going to give in, the demands starting being reduced. By the time we got to last night, the only thing the Republicans got was something that was already in the law anyway, which was the income verification section. Had they passed a clean CR, the many documented technical glitches with Heathcare.gov would have been laid bare for the press to hop all over.

Bearing that in mind, feel free to answer the poll question.

[Mal]

I will reveal my vote: Bad Strategy. I want everyone to know that I voted for Obama 3 times. The '08 primary, the '08 General Election and the '12 General Election and I will be the first to say that the Affordable Care Act is flawed and needs, at the very least, some refinement, if not an outright overhaul. I also want it know I disagree with the President and his positions on a few issues. But I support him because in spite of my disagreements with some of his positions, I DO believe he has the interests of the country at heart and he is an honorable man.

That being said, as a former Republican, I think the strategy of allowing the government to shut down because Obamacare wasn't defunded or delayed was VERY bad political strategy. Why? The Republicnas had been saying for years that this was a bad law with many flaws. As I said above, had they passed a clean CR, allowed the Affordable Care Act to start ( as they did), EVERY news outlet in the country from Fox to CNN to MSNBC would have been talking about how poorly the law was implemented and how flawed the roll out was. In fact, the damage would have cost the Democrats the Senate next year, and the Republicans would have gained House Seats, even without the gerrymandering they undertook in 2010.

Unfortunately for them, they arte looking at not only losing a few Senate seats, but they may actually lose the House.... Whoever is advising the RNC needs to go back to their alma mater and either take a remedial course in Public Policy or ask for some money back.

[Cerb]

I can't bring myself to vote as I don't see a suitable option for me.

Let me state that I do not consider myself a tea party proponent so I don't think it can be clearly defined that way. Both senators and 1 representative of Idaho supported Senator Cruz and the efforts to defund Obamacare. I consider this a conservative move and it was made as an a gesture.

When you have both the Senate Majority Leader stating there is no compromise, and a president who likens conservatives (or more specifically tea party affiliates) as being akin to terrorists, I think it is impossible to have a working government. There is no possibility of effective dialog and all the lower house can do is showboat.

I am not convinced that the house will shift or that democrats will seize a super majority.

Lets consider Mr Obama and his watch:
The IRS debacle,
The Libya debacle
Failure to get anything done on immigration
16 trillion dollars in debt, most of which has come in post 2008. With no curb in spending in sight, despite what the congressional budget office might or might not claim. They aren't known for accuracy.
Troops still being killed in Afghanistan.
Gitmo still being open.
The NSA debacle
The IRS targeting of non-centeristst affiliated non-profits.
healthcare.gov which is still a train wreck, which CNBC brought up the release that it only had 4 to 6 days of quality assurance testing (something that I am qualified on to call absurd).
The fact that many people are having their health coverage at work reduced, despite the comments Mr O made to the effect of "You like your health care plan? you can keep it".
The fact that the majority still have no first clue about what their costs will be.
The fact that Obama during the shutdown acted in a petty manner by closing public open air memorials, that typically have no guard, and spent more money keeping out than they normally spend letting people in.
The fact that the park service even evicted people from their homes which were on land leased from the federal government.

Successes:
Repeal of DOMA - which was just a matter of time.
The affordable Health Care Act. Which is going great.
The spool down in Iraq. Many dead but hey its done now, well except no doubt for SpecOps command and a lot of other "contractors".
I am now honestly trying to think of some more but in truth I can't. That's no showboating on my part I honestly can't think of any. If someone can I will add them to the list.


Did the shutdown do anything?
Yes. It showed the administrations attitude to the people that get in its way. It showed petulance and, in my opinion, a tyrannical approach which had no value other than to show the people who was in charge. it also showed a few people that were willing to stand up and state that this is wrong. The only time the house or senate conservatives can really do this is when the government is at the point of shutdown.

Now let me be clear, I'd quite happily see the entire GOP old guard retire if they are bothered with supporting the rights of the people they are supposed to represent. I make the same statement to the democrats of course but I am truly disgusted at the establishment GOP folks who rolled over with the cry of "we got beat in the election, so we have to take whatever Harry and Barry give us."

Disgruntled much? You bet.

I can't tell what will happen at the election. I do know that we have many more months to watch the Obamacare train wreck and that will play a huge factor in whether the Dems hold their seat. Politics has a short memory and what people will be looking at is their wallets. Republicans can stand up and say we did everything we could to save you from this. Democrats will be saying its awesome.

Consider this factoid. 7 million people must enrole in Obamacare for it to be viable. An average of over 1 million a month must enrole. While no hard data exists it seems highly believable that in the month of October sign ups so far are less than 100K. Now that is sign-ups, not enrolements. The Daily Mail UK reported the numbers a week ago at 51K sign ups. Perhaps fabricated but frankly, the Administrations reluctance to release a number seems to validate the story. It isn't a complicated thing to get the number either. It's a single database query that would return a result in less than 0.01 seconds on a slow crappy server.

This leaves the situation of having 5 months left (more or less) to now sign up the remainder and get them enrolled. Which means even more load on the servers and even more likelihood of them crashing.

Ultimately the poorest will continue to vote for their entitlements. Conservatives will continue to stand against entitlements, and the people in the middle will probably vote with their dollars.

To flog my dead horse a bit more: The shutdown did little to save money, and achieved little in practical terms. it did a great deal to piss America off for one reason or another, and America needs to be pissed off at its government. It just needs to figure out why it should be pissed.

There, long and incoherent rant over. That is what happens when I work on Sundays... well wait, it happens a lot anyway.

[Tsim Sha Tsui]

In my opinion (which Cerb has already had to put up with over in TDP), the shutdown and debt limit standoff were entirely inappropriate and ultimately damaging to the nation. And for what? All the GOP accomplished was to cost the economy billions of dollars, further endanger our credit rating*, alienate their allies (and greatest source of money) in big business, and look like petulant fools. They did not even dent Obamacare, nor did they reduce the deficit. In fact, as noted, they've only managed to raise the deficit further and push their approval ratings even lower.

Another big reason this whole mess made me so grouchy was America already has a system in place to deal with laws you don't like: you win elections, and repeal the law in question. This terror tactic of a minority party demanding they get their way or the economy gets it is reprehensible, and can not be allowed to happen again. Imagine a world where the Republicans controlled Congress & the White House, the Republican president passed a signature law, say, reforming Social Security. Then the Democrats take the House... not all of Congress and not the White House. But by God if the Republicans don't agree to gut the Social Security Reform Act they'll shut the whole damn country down! I can't imagine the same GOP minority that supported this showdown would then agree with Democrats' "right" to do so. (And nor should they.)

On the bright side, this whole mess seems to have finally caused moderate Republicans to realize they can't pander to the far right and still win national elections. A civil war has erupted in the GOP, with moderate groups like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Karl Rove's American Crossroads facing off against groups like the Tea Party** and Jim DeMint's Heritage Foundation. The moderates have more money and experience, while the rightists have the passion and grass roots. It's a coin toss who will win, but I think the result will either be a moderate victory (perhaps with the Tea Party actually becoming a separate party) or a return to Democratic dominance à la 1954-1994. (But maybe even worse, with GOP presidential prospects so poor.) My strong preference is for the former because I believe a two party system needs both parties to be strong, sensible, and relatively moderate.

*As I noted in TDP, the 2011 debt ceiling crisis resulted in the United States' credit rating being downgraded by S&P which, in turn, caused the national debt to rise $238 billion (or about 60% of the newly established debt ceiling) in the largest one-day increase in history. Causing something like that is not being fiscally conservative, it's called being reckless and irresponsible.

**There is no "tea party", but I'm following the popular vernacular of referring lumping the carious "tea party" groups together.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

OK... so I barely read what any of you above posted but I know the general gist of what you're saying. As a loyal Democrat I am wholly disappointed in both parties. To think that such a strategy was worth hundreds of thousands of people being out of jobs and tens of thousands of children having no daycare to go to is absolutely appalling. As a debater I've had the unfortunate task of getting up close and personal with a lot of the arguments on both sides, and it only reaffirms my displeasure with American politics in general.

Now, on to the real object of my displeasure, the grassroots movement commonly known as the "Tea Party" in political circles. What the "Tea Party" is becoming is nothing less than a group of disgruntled conservatives who evidently did not learn the word "compromise" as children. Now, this is not specific to the GOP. There is a group of Democrats who were the same way in the recent events. These two groups, unfortunately, were also the most outspoken of our representatives, and therein was the shutdown. For a while both of these groups decided that the best strategy would be to never ever ever ever EVER EVER EVER give the other party an INCH, but rather hold an entire COUNTRY, nay almost the entire WORLD hostage until they got their way.

My friends, welcome to the age where our policymaking body is one comprised entirely of screaming toddlers masquerading as middle-aged politicians. It makes me sick.

[Cerb]

The big reasons the grass roots movement is growing is because politicians have stopped listening. You are entirely correct that there is now a strong and growing trend towards obstructionism in both sides of the house. This naturally polarizes the nation and forces hostility and an inability to compromise.

The shut down:
The right wing of the house asked for compromise.
The left wing of the house followed the presidents no compromise mandate.
The right wing of the house tried to force compromise.
The left wing declined.
The government shut down.

Now think on this. Why were people asking for compromise? Because there are a huge number of people in this nation who suddenly realized that the affordable health care act applies to them and they suddenly have to participate. Sure, we knew it was coming but it seems to have taken a lot of people by surprise. Perhaps the Republicans knew the infrastructure wasn't ready to go live and they wanted to stall it. Given the current debacle do you feel like you are getting the best out of the money you are spending on getting the obamacare rock rolling?

The house has moved several times to repeal Obamacare but, as there is no compromise, the only option left is to play brinkmanship.

I'll state this. You (everyone) should never be a loyal democrat or republican. You should be a loyal American and encourage your representative to do what is best for America.

Right now I can't see AHCA going well for us, and questions must be asked of the administration that we have elected to spend our money.

I strongly feel that party allegiance is what needs to change in America. The parties in question have gotten us where we are right now and maybe its time for a whole new party.
Let the GOP die if it is time for it.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

I guess you wouldn't call me loyal. That's a bad word for my opinion, you are correct. In that sense you also should not call me a loyal American. America has failed its people and I recognize that. The shutdown was another example of the United States' government failing to be accountable to the people it governs. I generally support the left wing's arguments and their GENERAL philosophy, that government is a good thing but it should keep out of people's personal lives. But I do not support our representatives. I do not support our government. I do not support the way we are headed and in that sense I support no political party.

We f**ked up ages ago and we are just in a state of denial about it now. Instead of working it out we're taking out the situation on the "other side." It's always the other guy's fault and we never own up to our mistakes. If health care fails or if we default the Democrats will say it's the Republicans' fault and vice versa. They are oblivious to the people like you and me who recognize that there is something wrong with how government works. All they seem to care about is their own reelection campaign and smearing the "other guy". In part that has to do with homogeneous districts

Now to address some of the specifics in your argument:

Firstly it wasn't just the Democrats' fault that the government shut down. It was also the GOP's refusal to back any bill that did not defund the ACA that caused the deadlock. Many times Boehner asked the House GOP to stick to their guns and not allow any bill to pass that didn't defund the ACA. Don't believe me? Read any news article from about two weeks ago. I guarantee he said that.

I foresee the ACA going better down the road. I knew there would be some glitches at the start of it, and I'm not afraid to pay taxes on it once I get a job or turn 18. I know, it's easy to say these things now when I'm almost 16 and paying no taxes yet, but I genuinely believe that taxes are good for us. In almost every country with nationalized health care, the people are very accepting of it. Even members of the conservative party in Canada realize what good it has done for the health of the nation. Overall I support the ACA. I think it's been a long time coming and was a necessary action to check the power of insurance companies. They are taking WAY too much advantage of people who are in severe need of care.

But I don't support the individual mandate. A staunch advocate for civil rights, I think the individual deserves a right to choose how they are protected, and I don't think the mandate is needed. Those who want government-funded health insurance can sign up and pay smaller fees through their taxes. Not everyone has to opt-in but people will. Because they can't be denied coverage. It looks bad when the government doesn't live up to what it said it would.

But I agree with your last point. The party system needs to be restructured.

America needs to get its act together, and fast. We are headed for disaster.

I am not proud to be an American.

[Cerb]

Loyalty to the nation is where the dream of America starts. Without that dream there is no hope for the nation.

At that point the communists will have won the battle that they started more than 50 years ago. The attempt to destroy America from the inside.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

I am loyal to America as it was 50 years ago. I am a follower of dreams, a meticulous person who is always trying to do something more, be something better. I acknowledge that there were difficulties 50 years ago, that the civil rights movement was heating up, but at least the government could compromise. The current state of things results in my disloyalty to the current state of affairs.

We as Americans deserve better than this. I am not proud to live in America as it stands today, but I'm loyal to the American Dream. Our country was founded on noble values that don't deserve to be corrupted by petty greed and political backstabbing.

One does not get taller by making others smaller.

[Tsim Sha Tsui]

50 years ago President Johnson was escalating the Vietnam War, George Wallace was elected governor of Alabama ("segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever!"), and we were on the brink of nuclear war with the USSR. So yeah, I think we're better off today.

Even with all our many flaws, I still think America's the greatest country on Earth. If someone is unhappy with the government (and who isn't?), I always tell them the same thing: get out there and change it then! Join a political party, start bothering your elected representatives, and vote. Hell, run for office. When your starting point is "we're f**ked", you aren't going to get very far.

[Cerb]

What Tsim said, underlined.

In red.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

So my worldview is different than yours. Fine. That should be the starting point for compromise though, not the rejection of it.

People with different views could set them aside 50 years ago. That's what I'm getting at. Things passed for the good of all Americans because of that. The end of the 60s and the early 70s would be the time I would go back to if I could go to any time in history. I will agree, the beginning of the 60s was a f**king mess. But we got ourselves sorted out. We became the greatest nation on Earth.

We aren't far behind being the greatest now. But we as Americans were founded on an ideal that is so much more than this.

The future looks bright, I will say that. We're struggling to find our footing, but I know for sure that we will eventually. Problems like this take time and effort to solve. I'm being harsh on the US because I know what we could be and I want so badly for that to happen.

[Duckyian Empire]

Oct 21, 2013 8:34:49 GMT -5 Tsim Sha Tsui said:

50 years ago President Johnson was escalating the Vietnam War, George Wallace was elected governor of Alabama ("segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever!"), and we were on the brink of nuclear war with the USSR. So yeah, I think we're better off today.

Agreed, especially if you are a minority, like me. Is America the best nation ever? If you think so, then you have been under the idea of "American Expectionalism".

[Cerb]

I can't think of a better off the top of my head right now. Still I have only lived in two and the US is far more pleasing to me than the UK.

[Duckyian Empire]

I understand that, Cerb, but it was mostly a rhetorical question.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Well, every country is exceptionalist in some way I guess. You are definitely right though, Ducky. It's become an issue. If you want to get into the philosophy of it I would highly recommend reading William Spanos's stuff on Vietnam and American exceptionalism. It's quite interesting.

[Duckyian Empire]

*writes down so Ducky doesn't forget*

But seriously, I think it started after the Second World War and because Western Europe was in shambles, we saw the chance to fill in the vacuum. Viola, the beginnings of American "superiority".

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Oh, it began with the Spanish-American War. In ten years we turned from isolationists to full-on imperialists.

[Duckyian Empire]

I don't think we totally imperialistic, not then and there. Remember, the United States reluctantly joined the Great War and the Second World War. Also, the Roosevelt thingy (I forgot its name) had nothing to do with imperialism; we gained a chunk of Spanish territory after the Spanish-American War.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

We didn't reluctantly join WWII. We joined because there was a direct attack. There's nothing reluctant about a one-week turnaround.

[Duckyian Empire]

If it weren't for the direct attack, we would have joined WWII at a later date.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

There's doubt as to that. We would've been attacked in some form anyway.

[Duckyian Empire]

I think so too, but at a later date.

[Cerb]

FDR was leading the US to war long before the Japanese attack and had already been failing to obey the strict terms of neutrality through supplies to the UK. He had already appointed Wild Bill to start organizing intelligence and interaction with the UK SOE under the slightly vague title of the Coordinator of Information.

Imperealistic America is pretty much an invention of socialist detractors of the US as a whole. The United States has not expanded its legal territory in a very long time, and has made no move to do so.

Still this is all somewhat off track with regards to the deficit / debt ceiling, unless there is some direct correlation that I am missing.

[Duckyian Empire]

I went off on a tangent there, to be honest.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Happens all the time. This debt ceiling mess truly defines the word. What I really don't understand about this scene is, political backstabbing like today's has been going on almost since the founding of this great nation. Two hundred years ago candidates would buy up tons of newspaper ads to accuse their opponents of adultery and other objectionable offenses. Why now is compromise so insanely hard to reach? I'd love to hear ideas from all ends of the spectrum, because this really puzzles me as someone who seeks to at least somewhat understand the human mind.

[Duckyian Empire]

Perhaps the craziest idea: make the debt ceiling infinity, cut military and social programme spending, cut gov't subsidies for corn and make the United States part of the Commonwealth of Nations.

[Cerb]

How about we just cut a lot of spending from the crap we don't use and simplify the tax code so that nobody can hide their money and we don't need a massive organization to administer it. Plus we could eliminate fraud in medicare, adjust the social welfare safety net and tie it to jobs and community service so that you don't get something for nothing.

Oh, and we could do the sensible thing and admit the Affordable Health Care Act is not particularly affordable and scrap it. The government scraps military programs that turn out to be less than cost effective, why not admit this nightmare is better put out of its misery early?

[Duckyian Empire]

That's one way to go about it.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Cerb, to be frank I agree with you on everything but the last thing. I am in favor of government in general but the tax code is waaaaaaaay too complicated and allows for rich folks to hide their money in tax-free havens and Swedish bank accounts when they should be paying their fair share like everyone else. Medicare/welfare fraud - big problem, needs to be addressed in some way. Also a great way to cut spending is working on eliminating this. That is just for lazy people who don't want to help their country.

You know how I feel about healthcare though. I think we're in two separate schools of thought here. There is little evidence to support the non-affordability of government-run healthcare, and even if it doesn't end up being as completely cost-effective as it states, at least it will pay for some amount of the exorbitant hospital bills. The ACA cannot deny coverage to you like private institutions can. While I still am angry about the mandate that forces people to have insurance because I think people should choose their level of coverage and if they want to opt out of it. It doesn't matter a ton though, people still get health insurance and can't be shot down.

Regardless of what some continue to say, there is still little empirical evidence to support the claim that healthcare will fail without seeing how it gets on. They don't even give it a minute chance.. Canada, the UK, France, they all have government-run health insurance and people there are much, much healthier than in the US.