Detroit Water Shutoffs

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

nytimes.com/2014/03/26/us/detroit-threatens-to-cut-water-service-to-delinquent-customers.html?referrer=&_r=0

The Detroit Water and Sewage Department has announced that they are going to hire private contractors to shut off people's water if their bill is 45 days or more past due. What are everyone's thoughts on this? Detroit is obviously a city in very bad condition already, but what does this change? I know how I feel about it, but I want to hear more opinions.

[Sheynat]

Somebody called in the UN. america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/6/22/detroit-water-un.html

As for my opinion - my knee-jerk instinct is to say "keep the water flowing at all costs, even if it means raising taxes." But in Detroit's case...I don't think more taxes are going to fix Detroit's mess. I've been up there - the place is a ghost town.

[Ardreas]

I didn't know Detroit even still had a government. But it kinda makes sense. Obviously for a city that's bankrupt they're going to need any cash they can get, and if people are not paying their bills they need to do something to make sure people get the message that they can't expect free water just because the government's collapsed. Clearly this must be a big problem for them to go through such lengths to shut off people's water, so obviously a lot of people must be ignoring their bills, probably thinking that there isn't enough of a government left to do anything about it. And that could lead to serious problems as lawlessness skyrockets. So it makes sense that the government would have to take high profile action to let people know that they still exist and are still relevant.

[The Candy Lane]

This is a shitty situation, on the one hand these services are essential parts to a clean society, which leads to a healthy society. Cutting off these services has the potential to create major health problems and continue a cycle of poverty if there is a real inability for residents to pay their bills (cf. Brazilian flavelas). However, these services are incredibly expensive. I think most people don't understand just how expensive our modern water purification and distribution systems are. Society has to pay for these services, and as society is made up of individuals, it is ultimately individuals who have to foot the bill. Raising taxes isn't a realistic option, if the city is resorting to this measure it seems safe to assume that the residents can't afford increased taxation. The only option I see is getting the residents working, creating new jobs and manufacturing goods in the USA. I'm unaware of the industries in the Detroit area, apart from the dead-end auto sector, but hopefully they'll find some black gold.

[Escanaba]

Detroit is bankrupt, what else can the city do? Any well managed municipal government would cut off public utilities if payment is deeply in arrears. Of course, the city could refer people in need to other sources of public or private assistance if it is simply a question of not having enough money left to pay utility bills. In the meantime, however, the city cannot provide a free ride forever. The other consideration is that non-collectible accounts eventually have to be covered by taxpayers and/or paying utility customers which is hardly fair either. If there are those who are not paying because they think they can get away with it, well, suddenly they have some incentive to get current.

[Benevolent Thomas]

If only the government there could afford to start public works projects and hire the jobless to carry out the work. Someone reanimate FRD, he is needed once more.

[Ardreas]

Just wait, 100 years from now when global warming is taking a serious toll on the coastal cities Detroit will be a revitalized center of urban trade. As the ocean waters rise and the major metropolitan centers of the East Coast are flooded, the population will begin a general migration to the northwest. The Great Lakes region will receive a steady influx of refugees and relocating businesses. Chicago will become the new New York. Detroit will become the new Boston. The entire area from Toronto to Green Bay will become the #1 production and population center for the North American continent. The Great Lakes won't rise with the oceans because they're inland and not connected to glacial melting runoff, so the region will be safe from flooding. Furthermore, being inland they will be safe from massive hurricanes, and being fresh water they'll provide a nearly endless supply of water for all the population who will need it.

And as the southwest dries out, California experiences shattering earthquakes, and the gulf is crippled by nitrates and soil erosion, the entire country will be migrating northward over the next century. So the savvy investor today would be buying up huge plots of land around Detroit to develop for his children and grandchildren so that 100 years from now they can live as kings in the new center of civilization in North America.

[Anime Daisuki]

Jun 25, 2014 9:44:17 GMT -5 Ardreas said:

Just wait, 100 years from now when global warming is taking a serious toll on the coastal cities Detroit will be a revitalized center of urban trade. As the ocean waters rise and the major metropolitan centers of the East Coast are flooded, the population will begin a general migration to the northwest. The Great Lakes region will receive a steady influx of refugees and relocating businesses. Chicago will become the new New York. Detroit will become the new Boston. The entire area from Toronto to Green Bay will become the #1 production and population center for the North American continent. The Great Lakes won't rise with the oceans because they're inland and not connected to glacial melting runoff, so the region will be safe from flooding. Furthermore, being inland they will be safe from massive hurricanes, and being fresh water they'll provide a nearly endless supply of water for all the population who will need it.

And as the southwest dries out, California experiences shattering earthquakes, and the gulf is crippled by nitrates and soil erosion, the entire country will be migrating northward over the next century. So the savvy investor today would be buying up huge plots of land around Detroit to develop for his children and grandchildren so that 100 years from now they can live as kings in the new center of civilization in North America.

When the oceans starts flooding the east coast cities....the great lakes' water levels will rise too.

[The Candy Lane]

My immediate thought would be the fresh water levels wouldn't rise, except maybe in tidal areas like Quebec City. I haven't heard that before, do you have a source AD?

[Ardreas]

Jun 25, 2014 20:23:53 GMT -5 Anime Daisuki said:

When the oceans starts flooding the east coast cities....the great lakes' water levels will rise too.

Actually no it won't. The great lakes are around 600 feet above sea level and separated from the ocean by a long river which includes Niagara Falls! The global sea level would have to rise insanely high for it to even begin to effect the lakes that far inland. Even if all the ice in Antarctica and Greenland and Siberia were to melt it wouldn't be enough to raise water levels that high. It's just not physically possible.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Yes as a matter of fact it would affect the Great Lakes.

I'm going to post a long rant about my own personal feelings tomorrow, but yes those levels would rise even though that river exists.

[Ardreas]

*sigh* Really? Two of you don't understand physics and the way the water tables work? Inland water bodies are not effected by ocean levels rising. Period. If they were things like the Dead Sea in Isreal couldn't exist because they're already BELOW current sea level!

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Okay, time for a rant. There's a lot of things I've been thinking here, mostly because I'm absolutely appalled at some of the hypocrisy governments display in essentially forcing people to spend money they don't have on a universal human need. Naba, you're right. What else can they do? Shutting off utilities means saved money because they're not responsible for unpaid bills anymore. But at the same time, you're not allowed to clean your own water from the rain and other sources. If you do that they'll fine you big-time and possibly send you to jail where the taxpayers will be responsible for you. But wait, half of Detroit doesn't have money to pay taxes either. So what can they do?

It boils down to this. Water is something we can't live without. Within two days of water getting shut off, people are going to have to fend for themselves. If they do, it's another hefty fine they can't pay, which means jail time. If they don't fend for themselves, they're dead. It's a lose-lose situation and it only got that way because most of the auto industry decided it could make more money elsewhere without a care for the thousands of people they were putting at risk. Yes, the corporations are responsible and don't try to tell me otherwise. LITERALLY EVERYWHERE that corporations have packed up and left places where they basically employed everyone has the same situation as Detroit. Maybe not as drastic because they're not as big, but it definitely has had an impact.

Gary, Indiana - Steel industry left, now possibly one of the scariest places in the entire country to drive through. Half the houses I see are either boarded up or completely unfit to house anyone.

South Bend, Indiana - another town on the verge of collapse when a car company shut down. The only thing that keeps them afloat is Notre Dame.

And those are only the ones that I have personal connections to. It's sad that things came to this because of a few people's greed. Throw in a sprinkling of global warming and you have a massive clusterf**k with no good solution. On the one hand, people would say to shut off the water because they haven't paid their bills and it's their fault, maybe they should give up the cable bill. DO YOU REALLY THINK THE PEOPLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HAVE CABLE. I'm sorry, I'm getting off track. The bottom line is, there is no good solution to this problem.

I just want politics to be left out of it and people to do what's right for everyone, not just their own greedy little pockets. They say it's a free country, but freedom only comes when everyone is free to do as they please, not just those with the money. This whole thing makes me sick.

[/rant]

[Ardreas]

Jun 26, 2014 19:24:51 GMT -5 Witchcraft and Sorcery said:

...But at the same time, you're not allowed to clean your own water from the rain and other sources. If you do that they'll fine you big-time and possibly send you to jail where the taxpayers will be responsible for you. But wait, half of Detroit doesn't have money to pay taxes either. So what can they do?...
[/rant]

Seriously? They have a law making it so people can't find their own water? That's stupid. I've never heard of anything like that. Of course, I live in rural Iowa so we don't have any ridiculous laws like that. You can get water wherever you darn well please around here. I wonder why a city would come up with a law like that. Were they trying to force the people to pay for city water?

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Yeah, in the city they will fine you if you're trying to clean and purify your own water. It's dumb, I know, but it exists and it's why I'm doubly angry about this whole situation.

[Anime Daisuki]

Jun 28, 2014 10:39:07 GMT -5 Witchcraft and Sorcery said:

Yeah, in the city they will fine you if you're trying to clean and purify your own water. It's dumb, I know, but it exists and it's why I'm doubly angry about this whole situation.

I guess it ranges from State to State. I used to work in the urban planning field and had written policies to incentivise rainwater harvesting. Granted, it's not very straightforward because there are health and safety issues involved but it's not disallowed in California (maybe that's because we have a lot of droughts, so water conservation and recycling is/was always strongly encouraged).

Going back to the topic at hand, it never ceases to amaze me the type of decisions the US makes. For example, just a few days ago it was announced that Obama is sending over $1 billion to Syria to help stabilize border cities (one wish to interpret it as helping refugees but an official acknowledged that it might include "Training" for rebels), and an additional $500 million is going to be used to BUY WEAPONS for them. This knowing full well the rebels are primarily Sunni, and are fighting Assad because Assad is an Alawite, and that these same Sunni are allied with ISIS who are wrecking havoc in Iraq against the Shia Maliki government. I just wonder why he can't spend that couple of billion on fixing the VA or helping the poor in Detroit rather than poking hornets nests in the Middle East.

Wrong priorities people. All wrong.

[The Candy Lane]

I wonder how much money was spent on 4th of July celebrations?



I found this on the NS forum, thought it might be relevant. edit. I didn't take the screenshot, just spotted the link to it. It is... thought provoking.



ALso here's a more up to date article:
www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-detroit-water-20140629-story.html#page=1

3000 people being cut off per week? That's pretty extreme.

[Ardreas]

Hey, don't condemn the whole country for what's going on in one failing city. Where I live in Iowa, it's one of the best places in the nation, even the world, for low crime rate and good employment. I agree the situation is Detroit is deplorable and needs to be fixed, but that should not reflect upon the rest of us who have nothing to do with it.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Of course not. It's the same where I live. Lincoln, Nebraska is continually listed among the best places to raise a family in the US. The problem exists in more than one place though. Jobs are being outsourced all over the country, and former manufacturing hubs are facing the same problem that Detroit has struggled with - find a new source of job addition or fall into disrepair. The Great Lakes region has had this problem for a very long time, and it's not just Detroit. I've seen it firsthand.

[Ardreas]

Oh I'm not disagreeing with you W&S. The nation certainly has a mounting list of problems that need to be addressed by an administration that will actually fix the problems and stop punting them down the road. But for the time being, I'm just glad I live in a pleasant rural community and don't have to deal with a lot of what's going on elsewhere. I mean, people always need food. Iowa pork, corn, and soy beans aren't going out of style any time soon. If we can just keep our rivers clean (and in their banks where they belong) this should remain a great place to live for a very long time.