Paris and the Islamic State

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

I'm interested to hear the opinions of the Islands on this issue. As you are all probably aware, last Friday night there were a series of terror attacks in Paris that left 129 people dead and hundreds more injured. ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attacks, and the attackers have been traced to a neighborhood in Brussels, Belgium which is thought to be their base of operations. In the wake of this tragedy, five countries in Europe have closed their borders and many US governors are calling for Congress to do the same for the United States. The reason for the large number of border closings is due to some evidence that surfaced indicating that one or more of the attackers disguised themselves as refugees and came from Syria to Greece and then to France.

Many people think the Islamic State is doing the same elsewhere. What should be done about this?

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Okay, neutral question-posing over. I say countries should refugees with open arms. There are a few reasons for this, both moral and practical.

Morally both we as citizens of the world AND our governments have a duty to help those in need. Call me a bleeding heart, tell me I don't love my country, but I believe it's wrong and hypocritical to call a country like the United States of America a land of freedom and opportunity for all when we turn away people who are going to die if they go back to their home country. For God's sake, the first European Americans did the EXACT SAME THING WHEN THEY LEFT ENGLAND. By excluding a group of people from that opportunity based on what they look like goes against our founding values as a nation. Islam is not the Islamic State. Islam is not Al-Qaeda. The Quran vehemently denounces the kind of violence that these groups spread. To add to this, almost every religion in the world has a group or groups of extremists who seek to wipe out all other religions with violent force. Yes, even Buddhism, which is normally thought of as a peaceful way of life, has violent sects. The only reason Islamic terror groups are so much more feared than any of these groups is because of 9/11, and because we give them the time of day to spread their hatred. It's important to remember, though, that these violent sects are far outnumbered by ordinary people who want to get away from the violence and to save theirs and their family's lives.

If we turn away the refugees, they will go back to Syria and die at the hands of the government or the rebels. Their blood will be on our hands, as the blood of countless innocents already is. Syria is an anarchy right now. We would be sending them to their almost certain deaths.

Practically, we are playing right into the Islamic State's hand. By using this knee-jerk, fear-induced hatred of every Muslim, we are doing exactly what they want us to. They want us to hate all Muslims so they can become stronger. As Martin Luther King Jr. once said, "Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." In this case that saying is practically the only way to succeed. Additionally, letting refugees in does not pose a substantial risk to security. We can screen people; surveillance and intelligence exist. The "Americans first" crap is another way of letting ISIS win. We're the ones responsible for its creation whether we like it or not. We have to undo it, but until we realize that the current course of action is going nowhere, we're never going to make things right.

Our governments have created an unwinnable war to keep themselves in power and spread their propaganda. Take in the refugees. Stop the fighting. We can end this. Paris was a terrible tragedy, and it's made it very clear that something is fundamentally wrong with the way countries handle foreign policy and respond to terrorism.

Sorry for spouting off. I'm just furious at the way some people are handing the crisis and i figured this was a good place to post it.

A couple of really cool related things:
www.independent.co.uk/news/media/man-speaks-out-against-islamophobia-after-saddest-moment-with-muslim-taxi-driver-in-new-york-v2-a6735866.html

[Candlewhisper]

I agree with everything you've said there. Break down those barriers of nation and religion and false identity. Erode the power of fundamentalism by pushing an agenda of inclusiveness, progressive liberalism and mutual respect.

The world has gradually and slowly become a better and more open-minded place as human history has ticked along, but we're not there yet, and are probably many generations away from a place where the vast majority of human beings are reasonable, respectful of each other's right to exist and to live their lives as they choose. A bellicose and aggressive declaration of all out war on Islam is the best way to feed the Jihad. A gradual progression of cultural enlightenment, pursuit of universal values of human rights and a determination to be part of a single humanity that shares a single human identity: that's the way that we'll eventually win the war of ideas.

Sadly, I don't think we'll win this war in our lifetimes, but we own it to our descendants not to meet hatred with hatred, or anger with anger.

[TheBruce]

The problem with Daesh is that they are basically a state now and we've limited our attacks to air strikes, which are only good for destroying obvious targets and pissing people off. Until we commit troops on the ground in a serious way, they will continue to consolidate their hold in the region and thumb their noses at the rest of the world. The problem right now is that everyone involved is either playing politics or has an agenda that isn't defeating Daesh. They're not a group you can negotiate with, since their position is bringing about the apocalypse and killing all the infidels in the West. They make Al Qaeda seem like a moderate peace group in comparison.

As far as the refugees go, before Syria was encouraged by the West to overthrow Assad and then not get the Libya treatment, Syria was already groaning under the weight of refugees from other countries. That meant when things went to hell in Syria they went to hell worse than in a country that wasn't already cracking under the weight of incoming refugees. The US made a bit of a mess out of Iraq, by creating a vacuum and then being surprised when someone came along to fill it. While I understand the concerns the US had, in giving attack helicopters to Iraq for fear they would have used them on their own people, not having them really let Daesh get on the fast track to taking territory in Iraq and later Syria.

While it's a nice gesture to offer to take in 10 000 refugees to the US, given the size of the US and how many refugees much smaller nations are taking in, all the rhetoric about refugees from Syria overrunning the place is a bit of a joke. Canada has committed to taking in 25 000 refugees by the end of the year (it's hard to say if they'll accomplish this by then or if the process will continue into January, but it will get done). In terms of cities and infrastructure, Canada has 10% of the US's population.

[Louisistan]

Canada's 25,000 refugees are also a joke compared to the numbers we're dealing with in Europe. The German Federal government expects to have taken in a million refugees by the end of the year. A million. Compare that to 25,000.

I'm not very convinced of the way the German Federal government is handling the refugee crisis. I agree that we have a moral duty to take in these people, but the way it's done is just ... stupid. And in several ways. For one thing, the responsible agency never seems to think more than a month ahead. They're still building tent camps. In November. At 700 metres above mean sea level. It's already cold there and come Sunday it'll definitely start to snow. You can't have people living in tents then.

Another thing is the lack of transparency. The government doesn't communicate well about the refugee crisis with the general population. All they're spouting are propaganda slogans. "We can do this". Stuff like that. Meanwhile, the right wing parties are presenting numbers. How much taxes its going to cost. How many refugees are expected to have their families follow them to Germany. Nobody knows whether their numbers are accurate, but the government isn't rebutting with hard numbers. They could just present numbers themselves, but they don't. People are frustrated by that. They believe the government is covering something up and that sends them right into the arms of right-wing parties. Because they have numbers.

And lastly, I do not understand why we let refugees into our country without having to register. Overworked civil servants are no reason to resort to illegalities and potentially dangerous behaviour. The government simply said "Syrian refugees don't need to register. If they say, they're from Syria, just let them in". And that is an invitation for terrorists. Because they will take advantage of it.

Meanwhile, the terrorist attacks in Paris and the alledged terrorist plot surrounding the soccer match which was cancelled on Tuesday worry me. Although the fact that we managed to prevent the attacks on Tuesday is somewhat reassuring. But still. There's that nagging feeling again which I last had after 9/11. I also recently talked to people who remember the domestic terrorism of the 70s and 80s. Nobody wants to go back to the time where you couldn't set foot into a crowded area for fear of being bombed to nirvana.

These are troubling times...

[Candlewhisper]

A ground war in Syria to topple the Islamic State sounds like a common sense solution, but its more or less what they want us to do. It'd be playing into the rhetoric of the beleaguered warriors of Allah, fighting bravely against the devil-oppressors. Taking territory and blowing up buildings won't remove the threat, it'll just push it back into the shadows.

Thats not to say there's no merit at all in that approach, but I think its not as straightforward as it seems.

The real way to defeat ISIS is to have the system fail on its own terms. Expedite the economic collapse of the state, and remove its ability to function. Undermine its ideologies, and remove the will of angry young Muslims to join Daesh. Its a memetic war that needs to be fought for the hearts and minds of future potential terrorists, to turn them to a better path,

Part of this is in our own nations, where we have to diminish the feeling of young Muslims that the country is against them and that their religion is persecuted. You don't see young Buddhists or Hindus in America and the UK feeling persecuted and estranged, after all. Treat Muslims the same way, and the drive that creates the Islamic State disappears.

[Louisistan]

Here's a fun number (fair warning: It was posted on the FB page of a satiric TV show, so may not be 100% accurate):

Since the Syrian civil war began, the U.S. (population 317,238,626; area 9,826,675 km²) have taken in 2184 Syrian refugees.
That's the same amount as the county of Potsdam-Mittelmark (population 207,498; area 2,592km²) has taken in this year.

Yeah. I totally see how the U.S. is overrun by refugees. Good job.

[Candlewhisper]

Nov 20, 2015 8:31:37 GMT -5 Louisistan said:

Here's a fun number (fair warning: It was posted on the FB page of a satiric TV show, so may not be 100% accurate):

Since the Syrian civil war began, the U.S. (population 317,238,626; area 9,826,675 km²) have taken in 2184 Syrian refugees.
That's the same amount as the county of Potsdam-Mittelmark (population 207,498; area 2,592km²) has taken in this year.

Yeah. I totally see how the U.S. is overrun by refugees. Good job.

Totally over-run.

What you guys need to do is build a wall, all the way around the coastlines and borders of the USA. That'll keep em out.

[Libetarian Republics]

Disappointed in my country and the way people are reacting to this.

Can I move to Canada?