Pro's And Con's Of Believing

[Mandrill]

If you're all ready for some heavy stuff....

Do you believe? And if so, what do you believe in? If not, why not? What do you all think are the pro's and con's of believing?

First of all, I don't believe. I think it's just made up to not feel lonely and out of control over your life. People are afraid to not exist anymore and so they imagine there's something after death. Though I'm not saying it's a con, because if people need that to be able to live in comfort I'd say it's a con.

Listen, if you people feel like: Ow gaaaawd, she's bringing THAT up again...can't we just be left alone?! All we ask for, is a little ease, peace and comfort...
and if you really don't feel like arguiing about this, just say so and I'll shut the poll down.
Thank you.

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

I believe Jesus and a lot of the stuff that goes with it because I feel that I shoul. I just do not take the Bible literally. From what I have seen the only people who take religious texts literally are athiests and radicals.

[Parthini]

Lol. That's funny and ironic. I myself, am a semi-decent Church goer and I believe a lot of the stuff I am told at my home church. Can't say the same for the whole Episcopalian Church. But it's amazing how many people who say they are tolerant atheist liberals constantly bash good, peaceful Christians because they follow a 2000 year old philosophical book, mostly non-literally. I am in no way implying that on anyone here. It's just I've seen tons of it on the NS Forum and it's rather annoying. Someone starts a thread criticizing some Christian belief and then someone stands up for it and gets shot down by 5 other people who just about all day sit through the Forum looking for threads like that. They take quotes from the Old Testament and turn it on the Christians saying that we're being hypocritical because we want to love everyone but we follow a book where prophets unleash wild bears on rowdy kids. Journalists do it all the time, too.

Sorry for the rant. I'm done. I just needed to get it out without being criticized by the Forum Sharks for being a fundamentalist Nazi mindless sevant of Bush.

GPP

[Alfonia]

Sorry to hear that Parthini, the stupid people seems to make the most noise. (I'm not saying that non-believers are stupid, but people who won't let other people have their beliefs truly are.)

[Mandrill]

Well, I hope I'm not upsetting people with what I'm saying but how do you all feel about religion having cons? Cause I mean, there are millions of people believing this and then there are millions of people believing that and they both say it's the truth. So it does contribute to a lot of the world's problems.
But on the other hand, it also brings people together and makes them more forgiving and loveable towards others. So that's a pro again...

And just a question to anyone who believes and feels like answering:
You believe something, but, as I've said earlier, millions of others believe something else. So how do you 'know' your belief is the truth? Do you feel it or just accept it because you've been hearing this al your life?

Look, ok, I know I'm sounding like a 10-year-old (which, ofcourse, I'm NOT..), but I just wanna ask this to someone, and nobody around me seems to believe, or even if they do they still won't answer.....I'm actually just like this guy in 'The Catcher In The Rye' who constantly wants to know what happens with the ducks in Central Park when it's winter- does someone take them in a van? - but he's never answered.........anyways...

[The Peoples of Yavanna]

Hmmm...

I occasionally go to church. I am Christian (Episcopal) by confirmation. However, I do not take everything the bible says literally, nor do I believe everthing I am told at church. I do derive a lot of personal satisfaction out of Holy Communion, and my relationship with God; to me, this is all that matters.

I also believe that the world is still a representation of the Tower of Babel. Seperated by language, culture, and ideals, unable to understand one another, we all developed our faiths seperately. I do not believe any one religious belief is wrong. To go out on a limb, I believe that they are all basically the same destination, just different roads to get there. I have a very interesting book that compares, page for page, the teachings of Christ and the Teachings of Buddha. The similarities are startling.

Religious texts are open to personal interpretation, by the faithful and non-faithful, alike. Sometimes, I think that the fact that there are so many branches of Christianity alone, nevermind the bickering between the factions (as well as within the factions), is a sad testament to many Christians' belief that their faith is the only faith, their way of belief is the only way to believe. And so the message is often lost.

And yeah, Parthini, I've seen that as well on the NS forums. Criticism from people bashing Christianity because of the Old Testament, when Christianity is primarily about the New Testament. And it makes me literally irate to be called a G.W. lemming because of my Christian beliefs. I personally see nothing Christian about the way the man handles himself or this country.

And, Mandrill, to answer your question: The pro's, to me, of belief.... love, inner peace, inner strength. The con's: because I fancy myself an intellectual person, the constant tests of faith that come from knowledge, and the despair of seeing faith contorted every day by those who would use it to propogate their political and personal agendas.

And apologies, all, for the long-winded response.

[New Allectomeister]

I believe The Bible, and I take most of it literally, except the stuff that's obviously allegorical, and I believe it can be applied to modern government. I also agree with Parthini in that people who call others bigots may be bigoted themselves (I know someone like that, a neighbor).

[Parthini]

Even though there are many religeons and many gods and many beliefs, I don't really think they are all wrong but one. There are many different cultures in the world and therefore, many different ways of thinking, therefore many different interpretations, so in essence, since God is not human, we all may be wrong. However, we all may just think the same general thing, it may just be we are all different, so there are many different ways and ideas.

If that's confusing sorry. My keyboard sucks and I kinda went a bit braindead while typing, lol.

GPP

[Parthini]

And it's really amazing how many Episcopalians there are here!

GPP

[Naoi]

I personally find it hard to believe any of the standing religions...which is why I made my own. It's more or less a way of life, and not so much a religion.

This doesn't mean I don't respect those with beliefs though, especially not those that stand alone against countless atheists and still stand true to their beliefs.

Anyone who can stand up against a group of people deserves respect.

But the aspect of religion seems too much like it is trying to control how people live. You aren't allowed to do this, or this, or this. It's kind of a "big brother" system that's been around even before "1984" came out.

And I hate to think that our lives are already planned out. You may say that we have freedom of choice, but the dilemma of an "all-knowing perfect" being rules out any chance of free choice... If anyone would like me to explain my reasoning, I am more than ready too.

This is my life, and it's my story to right, as I see it. I don't want to spend my short time here praying to a being, or beings, that may not exist. This is a life not to be lived in vain.

[aleeproject]

I am a Born Again Christian.

[ALEN]

i have a Three questions they are a litte of topic

what's an Episcopal?

what's the old testament?

what's the new testament?

btw i.m muslim so i wouldn't really know to much about christianity

[Odracir]

I can't really say what an Episcopalian is, I don't really know much about them. The Old and New Testament refer to the two sections of the Bible. The Old is before Jesus, and the New is during and after Jesus.

[Parthini]

Episcopalian is a denomination of the Protestant Churches founded in 1542 (correct me on this if I'm wrong) by Henry VIII. It is the American branch of the Anglican Church or Church of England.

GPP

[Parthini]

Also, in response to Naoi,

I think of Humanity as God's little science experiment. God was lonely and decided to make some friends. The friends got a little rowdy and have kinda screwed up a lot of things. However, he still loves his friends and cares for them. That's why he sent his Son to help us. So we killed his son... However, His Son, like Him, loves us too. So he forgives us and sent us a funky spiritual telephone thing called the Holy Spirit. We can go through the Holy Spirit whenever we want, for whatever we want and God or his Son will answer. Soon the Son will come down and get all his friends and invite them to a nice big party. They can go if they want to, or they can stay. Our choice.

Quite babyish, but I like it and it defines things pretty clearly. There is a shorter and a bit more complex version on Matthew 21:33-45. It also has a good little moral to the story.

GPP

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

To Parthini's latest post, Langston Hughes would have agreed with you about the loniless part. I forget what the poem was titled though.

As to Alen, the Episcopal church, according to Robin Williams who is a member,is like the Roman Catholic Church but "same religion, half the guilt." From what I have heard from one of my friends, this is true given that the two sects perform many of the same ceremonies in a similar fashion. Such as Epiphany, which is a celebration of the Three Wise Men after Christmas. I have also heard of conservative Episcopal priests becoming Roman Catholic Priests later in their lives. Do not take my word as absolute though, I'm a Presbyterian boy, a sect founded on the rantings of a Frenchmen (John Calvin) as translated by a Scotsmen (John Knox). If you do not mind my asking, what sect of Islam do you adhere to? What is different about it from other sects?

As to Noai, the omnescent vs. free-will debate is an important issue. John Calvin believed in predistination, i.e. your fate was sealed. I don't go for this, C.S. Lewis I think had the best explanation for this. God is outside of time, our way of thinking, the universe in a way.

As to Yavanna, sounds like your Tower of Babel analogy is similar to Sufi (mystic branch of Islam) thought in our seperation from God. Only they used an analogy of 70000 viels of light if I recall correctly.

As to Madrill, I just believe. I do not feel details are important, like infant baptism as opposed to adult baptism. As a Christian, I feel Islam and Judaism are also worshiping the same God, just in a different way. I also feel that those who are in the worst trouble are those who claim to believe in God but whose actions indicate otherwise.

As a side note, as Ambassador to Texas, I have seen a nation advertising for a region that seems devoted to athiests mocking believers.

[The Buffy-verse]

I'm pulling out the literary student nerd card again: we're not supposed to read the Bible literally. Ok, so it was the Church Fathers who said that -- that if something doesn't make sense literally, we must read it allegorically -- but nonetheless, it's pretty obvious we shouldn't take it literally. Otherwise, I gotta smite my neighbor for violating some rules of Leviticus. And thank God my parents didn't sell me into slavery, because according to Leviticus, they could. . . . Plus, people forget that the NT is supposed to be the fulfillment of the OT, and in some ways, the replacement (from justice to mercy).

As for what *I* believe? Lord only knows (literally and figuratively). I'm trying to approach the Bible as a TEXT, and see what that leads me to believe. I'm one of the "there's gotta be something more" people. But then, I wasn't raised in much of a church-going family. So I can't help but think that that has a lot to do with my approach. I could back that up with some social theorists, but I don't have the energy.

On another note, this seems to be the most rational discussion of religion I've ever seen! Mad props to the 10000 Islands!

B

[Naoi]

My argument regarding free choice is a confusing one...even to me sometimes, but i'll give it a go.

God is, by reputation, all knowing, all powerful, and perfect. But this simple matter is why we cannot have free choice.

Let's say that at 4:55 tomorrow evening, I were to sit and eat an apple. God would know that I was going to eat that apple, being all knowing, and since he is perfect, he cannot be wrong. I have to eat that apple, otherwise God would no longer be perfect nor all knowing, losing his credibility.

So in order for him to be the supreme being, I have to eat the apple tomorrow at 4:55. There is no way out of it, unless of course, God makes mistakes. In which case, we can all be considered mistakes, seeing how his little Adam and Eve didn't quite work how he'd expected them too.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone, as religion is a rather touchy subject anywhere you go. I'd like to hear any comments anyone has about this.

[turkmenbashy]

I have to agree with you there Naoi, trying to reconcile 'the gift of choice' with 'predestination' is something that has baffled Christian theologians for centuries.

[LoreSong]

I do believe in Deity, but my path is somewhat unique. I grew up lutheran, but have been a practicing neo-pagan for over 20 years (as well as a writer of comparative global metaphysical practices). In my searching, I came to believe that there are many Paths to so-called enlightenment. There HAS to be as humans are very individualistic creatures always trying to find a way to set ourselves apart from the throng.

I see Deity as a multi-faceted crystal that's so large that we tend to focus on one facet at a time and humanize it. Thus one person/group sees YHWH, another Allah, another still Isis or Diana. Rather than these being different gods, they're more like personalities -- our mind's way of understanding what, to us, is somewhat incomprehensible due to it's vastness.

Am I making sense?

[ALEN]

Posted by: TheSensitiveNewAge Posted on: Today at 3:13pm

what sect of Islam do you adhere to? What is different about it from other sects?

i.m a sunni muslim
i really don't know the differences between the sects
i havn't really studied that

but i think its just different interpretations of the qu'ran

here is some things about sunni islam

sunni Islam
Belief in Deities: There exists only one personal God Almighty - Creator, all-powerful, ever-present, and all knowing -- formless, incorporeal spirit.

Incarnations: None, as only God is worshipped. Muhammad is revered as the last and greatest of about 124 Prophets/Messengers. Jesus Christ was a Prophet/Messenger of miraculous birth who performed miracles, ascended to heaven before crucifixion, and will return as a Muslim -- but he was not an incarnation of God.

Origin of the universe/life: God created the heavens and earth in six days but the Qur’an refers to a “day” as equal to thousands or tens of thousands (or any large number) of years. In the West, some Muslims allow for the belief in evolution but only as controlled by God.

After death: Saved souls will experience the bliss of heaven and unsaved souls the torture of hell. On Judgment Day, God will resurrect the dead, unite body and soul, and judge all for eternity in heaven or hell. There are 7 layers of heaven.
Why evil? People are not inherently sinners but are, by God’s design, free to choose right or wrong, including belief or non-belief in God. Satan and his spirits inhabit the planet and rule the non-believers while Satan cannot touch believers.

Salvation: Obey God’s law and Muhammad’s doctrine. The path to heaven includes confessing faith in one God, Allah, and that Muhammad is His Messenger; recitation of five prayers daily; giving alms; fasting throughout Ramadaan, pilgrimage to Mecca. Confessing and repenting one’s sins is between the person and God, made only to Allah and for Allah. Strict obedience to God's laws (conveyed in the Qur’an) and His prophet's doctrine is required.

Undeserved suffering:Suffering is desired by Allah to erase one's sins. Some suffering is Satan's doing or is the work of his spirit world cohorts ("Jinn"), and is allowed by Allah as a test of humility and faith; suffering/adversity strengthen one's faith, as pain often leads to repentance and prayer.

Issues: Abortion is prohibited. Homosexual behavior is condemned. Marriage is a sacred contract (but not regarded as a sacrament), and although divorce is permitted, strong reconciliation attempts and measures are expected to be taken first, per the Qur'an, and there are some waiting periods and restrictions on multiple remarriage to the same woman. Remarriage is not prohibited.

[Mandrill]

Thank you ALEN with this beautifully written summary

I always think: well, IF there does happen to be a God, I don't believe that power can know everything and everybody. So, I think 'my' idea about that, that most approachs existing visions, is:
God has created the matters that, after evolving, contributed to the existence of earth in its original shape. And I don't think he then interfered with evolution, but just 'watched' it (as much as God can 'watch'), all of it, and not only of humans.
And, as Naoi has said earlier, I will also not spend my life praying and devoting myself to God. Cause if there IS a God, he is not gonna care about that; he's gonna care if you've lived a good live, and most of all, if you always had a willing spirit.
But, as you all know when you've read my former posts, I don't believe in God when I think rationally, but if there does, by any chance, happen to be one, I believe it's like this.

[Naoi]

That's the whole basis behind my little thesis I wrote in english last year! I call it markinism, due to lack of better names. It's a way of life promoting individuality and setting your own goals, and not letting others control you. Not to the point of utter rebellion, but so that the life you live is your own and it's not at the will of someone else.

[Parthini]

It's too close to Marxist to become a theory

GPP

[Naoi]

lol yeah, that's why i hate my name sometimes...

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

Thanks Alen, I didn't know the stuff in that last paragraph.

As to things like church attendence, I do not believe they are required. However, the key is to keep thinking about God and not let the little things get in the way. So setting aside a regularly scheduled time helps. That is also a large point of prayer in my opinion.

[Down under there]

Just sort of thinking about the question, pros and cons: I enjoy my religion and I believe strongly in God. There are so many pros to religion on a personal and community level. You really get to know your congregation and yourself, through church. And you get to establish your own morals (at least I hope you do) , and have an incentive to keep them.

But the cons of religion are also huge. Religious doctrine is the source of much of the violence in the world. Part of the problem is that, being believers, religious people tend to TEXTknowTEXT we're right when it comes to faith, even in the face of any practical arguments peacekeepers throw. Thus, religious conflicts are the hardest and slowest to resolve, and people are willing to do more (suicide bombers, etc)

It's a dillemma. I could never give up religion, even with all these strings attached. The only way (As far as I can tell) we can ever get the best of both worlds it to have TEXTtotalTEXT separation of church and state, everywhere. Not likely. So... I guess we're stuck with it..

PS Thanks ALEN for the great post on Islam
PPS Thanks 10000 Islands for an free-spoken yet non-accusatory(!) discussion!

[Re-Yupanqui]

Down under there took my words. I'm a Lutheran, and, if not devout, very proud of my faith. I believe in the Holy Trinity, and I love Martin Luther's writings. Also, Ephesians 2:8, I love. God's forgiveness is a free gift by faith... wow. That sums it up for me. Also the first chapter/introduction to John. BElieving in the Holy Trinity, that means a lot. Thanks to ALEN for that beautiful summary. However, I happen to love reaserching new/ very old international religions, like the Incan and Buddhist religions. Yes, Yupanqui is an Incan ruler. Anyone who knows anything about these religions please post or message me.

Cons: If you think about it, most major wars are connected to organised religion. Al Queda (spelling sorry) started and "Axis of Evil" war because of their beliefs. MAny religions have been persecuted (the Inquisition, Holocost)

There are pros and cons, but beliefs are personal and should be respected no matter what.

Yupanqui

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

Does anyone know anything abouth the Zorastians? They used to be the dominate religion of Iran before Islam.

[Parthini]

Yeah, I do.

They believe in a good diety and a bad one. At the end everyone battles and good wins. The Jews got angels and demons from them after being rescued from the Babylonians.

Not much else. Look in the Yahoo! encyclopedia. It usually has good stuff.

GPP