The Ubiquitous Yet Obligitory Abortion Thread

[Le Crochet]

This aught to get things rolling here. What is your stance on abortion and why? I say abortion should be banned unless in cases where the mother's life is at risk and even then it should be done only after much internal debate and discussion. Abortion has nothing to do with womens rights. It is murder and that is illegal last time I checked.

(Someone had to start this discussion. So best to start it off right.)

[Noyzistan]

There are some good reasons for abortions, and then there are some good excuses for abortion. They both have their place and should not be confused.

Of course, the first question is; when is the "tiny thing" (constitutionally, medically, morally) considered a person?

[Isles of Nixon]

Wow, talk about recognizing the 800 pound gorilla in the room - this is going to evoke a lot of passion from either side of the debate so please remain respectful and open to everyone's opinions. When it comes to this debate, fevers boil and so if you hear something that just grinds your gears, take a few minutes to cool off before responding please.

Abortions should be legal only in case the life of the mother is at risk or if it were a case of forced pregnancy (i.e. rape). That's it, end of story. Too often those who who seek abortions are doing it as a matter of convenience and birth control for their stupid mistakes. That's why there's adoption.

[Noyzistan]

:grin:
How would you definine "at risk"?

also, would a "morning after" pill be considered abortion?

[Twobagger]

I don't think it's so open and shut. If you restrict safe, legal abortions, many women will circumvent the law by lying about the circumstances that caused them to become pregnant, or by simply getting an unsafe, illegal abortion.

[Isles of Nixon]

"At risk" means if the mother's health could be jeopardized by the pregnancy. If those who want to have abortions unsafe and illegally want to risk their lives in doing it, it's very unfortunate and will not lead down the right path and women should be educated not to do that, there's always adoption.

The morning after pill is an interesting discussion and I don't know enough about the science behind it to make an accurate opinion on it yet. When I get educated, I'll be able to better answer such a question.

[Noyzistan]

I'm curious to know; why do you believe the mother's life is more important than the baby's life? Would this argument be valid even after the baby is born? If not, what's the difference?

[New Dracora]

Ok, I'll bite...

It is my personal opinion that abortion should be legalised across the board and there are a number of reasons for this which I will outline here to allow others the opportunity to rebuke said reasons should they disagree.

1) I don't consider an unborn fetus to be a human being. To me, an unborn fetus is a growing collection of cells built around DNA and does not yet constitute a complete person until emerges from the mothers womb and begins to experience life as we know it.

2) I feel that it is better to allow an abortion than to force the birth of an unwanted child into the world. Yes people do make stupid mistakes so the unwanted pregancy is not always due to rape, sexual abuse, etc, but none the less people who do often end up pregant due to a mistake are more likely, I believe, to neglect and/or abuse the result of their mistake.

3) Who are we to dictate what a woman can or cannot do to their own bodies? Forgive me for bringing up an old cliche here but I thought democracy was all about choice. If a woman wants to have an abortion they should legally be able to do so.

4) A minor reason, but a reason none the less: aborted fetuses can be harvested for stem cell research - again providing more freedom of choice but this time to those who have been deprived of some of those freedoms by debilitating illnesses.

5) Lastly, legal or not abortions are going to happen anyway whether you agree with them or not. History has shown that try as you might, some people always find a way around the law should it ever stand in something they feel they really want/need. Making abortion completely illegal won't stop (or even slow the rate of for that matter) abortions from happening, but it will push woman into unsanitized environments with little or no advice on the matter. At least if abortion were fully legal, a woman can get professional advice and hell the government could even set standards (such as psychiatric evaluation to determine if the patient is mentally sufficient to make rational decisions for example), education programs and the like - you might even reduce the rate of abortions by making them legal (as the abortee would have a greater support system under a fully legalised system).


So there you have it. I think I've thrown enough stones in this glasshouse, time to move on to the next one...

[Lichto]

On each and every point that New Dracora made, I agree, with one exception. I believe the fetus becomes 'human' when it reaches viability; that is, when it can survive outside the mother's womb unaided by medical equipment. Now, this is different for every fetus and mother, but it still applies, I feel. In ND's system of full legaliz(s)ation, doctor's would be able to give their professional opinion on whether a fetus has achieved viability. I think once that happens, a fetus should be protected under the law.

ND's point about allowing abortions to protect the future kid from parents who don't want a child is a wonderful idea. I know Nixon's going to jump in here and make some remark about adoption, and I want to respond with the fact that there are still hundreds of thousands of orphans living in foster homes and orphanages that will never be adopted. More families these days are having fewer children, and having them naturally, not adopting. I admit it's been a year or two since I've seen those statistics, but I'm confident they're still true. So, if all unwanted children were to be given up for adoption, the orphan and foster homes would become unbelievably overcrowded, leaving the kid worse off than if the parents, who didn't want him or her, kept the child.

Abortion is a fairly simple, fairly inexpensive operation if done legally and safely. With some simple government safety measures in place, doctors would be able to perform abortions without fear of injuring the mother.

And isn't it called a fetus because it's not human yet?

[Noyzistan]

good responses here. will respond after a good night's rest. I want to be coherent.

[Sinn Féin's Ireland]

Jun 16, 2008 10:41:08 GMT -5 Lichto said:

On each and every point that New Dracora made, I agree, with one exception. I believe the fetus becomes 'human' when it reaches viability; that is, when it can survive outside the mother's womb unaided by medical equipment. Now, this is different for every fetus and mother, but it still applies, I feel. In ND's system of full legaliz(s)ation, doctor's would be able to give their professional opinion on whether a fetus has achieved viability. I think once that happens, a fetus should be protected under the law.

ND's point about allowing abortions to protect the future kid from parents who don't want a child is a wonderful idea. I know Nixon's going to jump in here and make some remark about adoption, and I want to respond with the fact that there are still hundreds of thousands of orphans living in foster homes and orphanages that will never be adopted. More families these days are having fewer children, and having them naturally, not adopting. I admit it's been a year or two since I've seen those statistics, but I'm confident they're still true. So, if all unwanted children were to be given up for adoption, the orphan and foster homes would become unbelievably overcrowded, leaving the kid worse off than if the parents, who didn't want him or her, kept the child.

Abortion is a fairly simple, fairly inexpensive operation if done legally and safely. With some simple government safety measures in place, doctors would be able to perform abortions without fear of injuring the mother.

And isn't it called a fetus because it's not human yet?

Hear hear. Abortion isn't nice, but it's sometimes necessary, and the lesser of two evils. In cases of rape, underage pregnancy, it's more than justified, or where the parents don't want the child. As science gets better, the age of viability gets lower and lower. This should always be reflected in the law.

[Arotianis]

I agree with Noyz's post that the real question is at what point is the fetus considered a person. I don't think a sperm connected to an egg is a human being and don't have any moral issues with plan B (morning after) pills. However, having an abortion when the baby is nearly ready for birth is murder.

It is difficult to say at what point the fetus is no longer part of the woman's body but a separate person, perhaps at the end of the first cycle (the current system in the U.S.) or perhaps when fetus's heart starts beating, or perhaps when it becomes viable as Lichto said. Overall, I believe that abortion should be legal up to the point that it is considered a human being. That point is debatable but I think that the current system (abortion being legal during the first three months of pregnancy) works.

[The Candy Lane]

Jun 16, 2008 8:39:14 GMT -5 New Dracora said:

5) Lastly, legal or not abortions are going to happen anyway whether you agree with them or not. History has shown that try as you might, some people always find a way around the law should it ever stand in something they feel they really want/need. Making abortion completely illegal won't stop (or even slow the rate of for that matter) abortions from happening, but it will push woman into unsanitized environments with little or no advice on the matter. At least if abortion were fully legal, a woman can get professional advice and hell the government could even set standards (such as psychiatric evaluation to determine if the patient is mentally sufficient to make rational decisions for example), education programs and the like - you might even reduce the rate of abortions by making them legal (as the abortee would have a greater support system under a fully legalised system).


So there you have it. I think I've thrown enough stones in this glasshouse, time to move on to the next one...

Murder is and theft are also illegal but how many days go by without there being a shooting or robbery on the news? perhaps we have to better educate the potential thieves and murderers so they realize that bullets kill. - although i thought that was called common sense.

[Anime Daisuki]

Jun 16, 2008 8:39:14 GMT -5 New Dracora said:

5) Lastly, legal or not abortions are going to happen anyway whether you agree with them or not. History has shown that try as you might, some people always find a way around the law should it ever stand in something they feel they really want/need. Making abortion completely illegal won't stop (or even slow the rate of for that matter) abortions from happening, but it will push woman into unsanitized environments with little or no advice on the matter. At least if abortion were fully legal, a woman can get professional advice and hell the government could even set standards (such as psychiatric evaluation to determine if the patient is mentally sufficient to make rational decisions for example), education programs and the like - you might even reduce the rate of abortions by making them legal (as the abortee would have a greater support system under a fully legalised system).

That's the same argument the druggies have for legalizing theuse of marijuana, cocaine and other drugs. "Since we can't stop it anyway, let's legalize it so we can control it".

[Enigmatic]

Just because something is going to happen anyway doesn't mean it should be allowed. In my opinion, abortion is wrong. I don't accept the argument that a fetus isn't a person. I believe that it is, but even if it isn't it will become a person. It is innocent and deserves every right to life. That said you can't just outlaw it. Just outlawing something will not solve the problem. As ND said, people would continue to find ways to destroy their child should they want to and at increased risk to their own health. Except in cases of risk to the mother, abortion should be outlawed, but that should also come with education as to why it is wrong. Unfortunately not everyone can agree that it is wrong.

Oh, and let me take a moment to condemn those people who stand outside abortion clinics yelling and screaming at those who go in. That is not the way to go about it. It's not helping anything. Those folks really get on my nerves. They aren't doing anything to change anyone's mind; they're only making the whole situation even worse.

[Maxxalot]

Abortion is something that definately should be legal. No person should be able to tell a woman what she has to do with her UNBORN child. If she doesn't want to have a child or she is not ready or financially equipt, she shouldn't have to. At the time of the abortion the fetus is not alive yet, it does not feel pain. You cannot kill something that is not alive to begin with.

[Libertarian Freemen]

Time for me to weigh in, I guess.

Whereas the unborn child is genetically human from the moment of conception, the stage of development should be irrelevant in defining personhood.

If you are destroying a human life, you are committing murder, and since the fetus is human, abortion qualifies as murder. Killing a person is justifiable only when that person is threatening the life of another person, but less than 1% of abortions are performed because of an imminent threat to the life of the mother.

Due to the traumatic nature of rape, pregnancy is a very rare development. In cases of rape and incest, the unborn has had no part in the crime committed and should not be punished. The rapist is the criminal, and both the child and the raped are victims. Sentences for those crimes should better reflect this.

I have a news flash for you - SEX MAY RESULT IN PREGNANCY! If you're not prepared to be a parent, don't be foolin' around! Actions have consequences. Guys - if you impregnate a girl, you are now responsible for caring for two other people. If you're not ready for that, don't be gettin' it on with the ladies. Gals - If you're not ready to waddle around for 9 months with a growing belly, and then take care of a child for almost two more decades, don't be sleeping around!

I realize that many on the libertarian edge of the political spectrum disagree over whether abortion is a right or not. The ideal of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness belong to all, and we must do everything we can as a society to secure those rights for the most vulnerable among us. I personally feel that these rights ought not be infringed upon at any stage of the human life. We do not live in a caste system, and being born into poverty need not be condemnation to a life of poverty. The assumption that children born to poor parents are doomed to a subsistence life is erroneous in this day and age.

Lastly, the Dickensian orphanage is a thing of the past. As far as I can tell, there are less than 200 Catholic orphanages in the US, and there is very little difficulty in finding at least a foster family to care for children here.

[Lichto]

You've got to be kidding me. Abstinence? Please, like most people even know what that means... It is effective at preventing pregnancy, this is true. However, sex is an amazing thing, and people are going to enjoy it no matter what. My vote would be for condoms in the schools, and sex education, to encourage safe sex, and reduce the incidence of teenage pregnancy and unwanted children.

And I was not implying the "Please sir, may I have some more?" kind of orphanage. My point is that fewer people are adopting children, and if everyone who got an abortion put the kid up for adoption instead, we'd be swimming in homeless kids while were trying to get to work every day.

[Anime Daisuki]

Abortion Provider Shot Dead In Church

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/31/AR2009053101181.html?hpid=sec-nation

[Estayland]

If convicted, he should be sent immediately to the chair. Murder is murder, no matter who it is you kill.

[Enigmatic]

Exactly. I absolutely hate people who think they're helping matters by killing a doctor that does abortions or blowing up an abortion clinic. It just demeans the pro-life movement. It highlights hypocrisy and it does nothing. I also hate those protesters who stand outside abortion clinics yelling and screaming and cursing at anyone who goes in there. That doesn't help things either. This is a sensitive issue and it has to be handled with love, understanding, and tact. Some folks are just idiots though and they make the sensible people look bad.

[Anime Daisuki]

Some people call the doctor in question a mass-murderer because he does late-term abortions. In that perspective, killing him would save hundreds.

(That's not what I believe, abortion issues don't push my button. I'm just highlighting the counter-argument)

-AD

[Enigmatic]

Yep and if he's black then he's not really a person so killing him doesn't even matter.

Anything can be rationalized if you put your mind to it. History is full of examples. I used one, you guys can take your pick.

[Estayland]

Jun 2, 2009 15:52:33 GMT -5 Anime Daisuki said:

Some people call the doctor in question a mass-murderer because he does late-term abortions. In that perspective, killing him would save hundreds.

(That's not what I believe, abortion issues don't push my button. I'm just highlighting the counter-argument)

-AD

Ends justifying means. I don't think any sane person is using that excuse as a reason the doctor should be dead... not even pro-lifers.

[Chronopolice]

I would agree that abortion is a social minefield.

I am for legalizing abortion to give the mother more options on the matter.

[Salinthal]

Jun 16, 2008 8:39:14 GMT -5 New Dracora said:

Ok, I'll bite...

It is my personal opinion that abortion should be legalised across the board and there are a number of reasons for this which I will outline here to allow others the opportunity to rebuke said reasons should they disagree.

1) I don't consider an unborn fetus to be a human being. To me, an unborn fetus is a growing collection of cells built around DNA and does not yet constitute a complete person until emerges from the mothers womb and begins to experience life as we know it.

2) I feel that it is better to allow an abortion than to force the birth of an unwanted child into the world. Yes people do make stupid mistakes so the unwanted pregancy is not always due to rape, sexual abuse, etc, but none the less people who do often end up pregant due to a mistake are more likely, I believe, to neglect and/or abuse the result of their mistake.

3) Who are we to dictate what a woman can or cannot do to their own bodies? Forgive me for bringing up an old cliche here but I thought democracy was all about choice. If a woman wants to have an abortion they should legally be able to do so.

4) A minor reason, but a reason none the less: aborted fetuses can be harvested for stem cell research - again providing more freedom of choice but this time to those who have been deprived of some of those freedoms by debilitating illnesses.

5) Lastly, legal or not abortions are going to happen anyway whether you agree with them or not. History has shown that try as you might, some people always find a way around the law should it ever stand in something they feel they really want/need. Making abortion completely illegal won't stop (or even slow the rate of for that matter) abortions from happening, but it will push woman into unsanitized environments with little or no advice on the matter. At least if abortion were fully legal, a woman can get professional advice and hell the government could even set standards (such as psychiatric evaluation to determine if the patient is mentally sufficient to make rational decisions for example), education programs and the like - you might even reduce the rate of abortions by making them legal (as the abortee would have a greater support system under a fully legalised system).


So there you have it. I think I've thrown enough stones in this glasshouse, time to move on to the next one...

I agree. My only hang up is 3rd trimester abortions. I only support those under certain circumstances. I hope that a person can make up there mind in the first 6 months.

[Shelter from the Storm]

Abortion is legal in Canada and 3rd trimester abortions are almost unheard of. It really is not an issue at all.