New York Mosque Controversy

[Takaram]

So, as some of you may have heard, a group of Muslims have been planning to open up a mosque in a building that they have owned in New York a few blocks from Ground Zero. This has created a great deal of anger from some people, who have done everything from calling this action insensitive and asking them to build it elsewhere to saying that this group is part of a vast conspiracy to take over America.
The problem is, however, these people didn't just decide to build this in the past couple of years. They owned the property well before the 9/11 attacks, and had been planning to build there for a while.

Who do you think is right? The Muslim group, which has been described by many as "moderate", or the people who wish to prevent to construction of the mosque?

[Takaram]

Now, my personal opinion is that the people saying that the mosque should not be built should go home and shut up. The comments made at the hearing yesterday by some of the opponents ranged from ignorant to downright racist.
The sheer idiocy which was displayed at that meeting (A series of clips can be found here) is simply dismaying. That even that many people can actually believe the things flying from their mouths is, to be honest, astounding and depressing.

[Cerb]

It's a tough situation. I think they have the right to build on the land that they own. That's America.

Is it in a sensitive area that was automatically going to cause conflict? Oh yes. They could be the most liberal muslims in the world but that won't matter or even be considered by a lot of people.
Now, do I think they are doing it to cause offence and upset? That's a tough one to call.

I'd have to know more about the leader and his attitude towards America and the actions of the fanatics. I'd also have to find an unbiased source of information on him. That's just impossible.


I'd rather see them build somewhere else, but I can't object to their legal right unless the area was re-designated as a historical site demanding preservation.

I'm pretty certain that innocent muslims lost their lives that day.

[Bad Infinitum]

Calling a Muslim group "moderate" makes just about as much sense as calling a Christian group "moderate". There are violent Christians, hell, there are thousands of violent Christians in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, waging war on their sworn enemies. Just like any religion.

This shouldn't even be a discussion. These are my scruples:
1. 99.99% of Muslims are peaceful. In fact, Islam preaches far more peace than it does war. The Bible is full of stories of rape, incest, mass murder/genocide/general bloodshed, killing of brothers, lusting after mothers, treason, treachery, and deceit. The Qu'oran teaches people how to be nice to each other.
2. Freedom of religion. This shouldn't even be an issue.
3. Like Cerb mentioned, hundreds of innocent Muslims were killed on 9/11 right alongside the thousands of their fellow New Yorkers (who were probably mostly atheists).
4. Freedom of religion... what the hell, people.

[zarwa]

I think honestly that the Muslims should have all the rights to build a mosque there just the same as a Christian group would have the right to build a church. Personally I believe in religious freedom even though I, myself am not particularly religious.
However that being said 9/11 was an extremely traumatic experience for the people of the U.S. myself included. And because of that it may be in their best interest to find a different location for the mosque.
We live in a time of fear and uncertainty and that often correlates with hatred and intolerance. As sad as it is I fear for any individuals who would attended that mosque, if it where built.

[Guy]

Jul 14, 2010 21:43:16 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

1. 99.99% of Muslims are peaceful. In fact, Islam preaches far more peace than it does war. The Bible is full of stories of rape, incest, mass murder/genocide/general bloodshed, killing of brothers, lusting after mothers, treason, treachery, and deceit. The Qu'oran teaches people how to be nice to each other.

The Qur'an and the bible have a bit of both. The Qur'an isn't much better than the bible, or at least the old testament (I really don't know the new testament well enough). There are stories about genocide in the name of God in both. There are good things in both.

Examples: Leviticus 19 & 20 are great. The idea that charity is more important than religion is there throughout Prophets - I don't have any examples on the top of my head other than Isaiah 1, but there are better ones.

Secondly, your figure is wrong. It's much closer to 95%. 5% is a lot.

Disclosure: Jewish, but agnostic.


Regarding the issue, not allowing them to build the Mosque is racist and disgusting.

[Pompadoodle]

I'd certainly agree with those who've said that they have a right to build a mosque on the land that they own (and owned before 9/11). Clearly true. Also, banning them from doing so would be grossly discriminatory.

However....

Given the hostility of many Americans towards Islam, this is not a very bright move. Unless they want to stir things up.

[dels]

Sure its not very smart, but really they have every right. Not that they should but there's no reason they shouldn't.

[Anime Daisuki]

Looks like a deliberate propaganda move to me.

[Pompadoodle]

Jul 15, 2010 12:04:37 GMT -5 Anime Daisuki said:

Looks like a deliberate propaganda move to me.

It could well be that.

One thing about Feisal Abdul Rauf, the guy thats behind the proposed mosque- he seems to be saying different things to his US audience and his Arabic-speaking audience (e.g. in Arabic newspapers). And naturally hes a lot more moderate when talking to the Americans.

Its difficult to tell exactly what sort of game is being played here. Still, he clearly does have every right to build the mosque- regardless of what his real motives are.

[Kranusilika]

Jul 15, 2010 5:08:24 GMT -5 Pompadoodle said:

...Given the hostility of many Americans towards Islam, this is not a very bright move. Unless they want to stir things up.

I agree. It would be like somone putting a pig farm on a site that is considered sacred my the Muslim's. Simply put...it is in bad taste to do so.

[Kranusilika]

Jul 14, 2010 21:43:16 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

1. 99.99% of Muslims are peaceful. In fact, Islam preaches far more peace than it does war.

I do not agree with this. But, that is just my opinion. ;D

[Bad Infinitum]

Jul 17, 2010 12:37:19 GMT -5 Kranusilika said:

Jul 14, 2010 21:43:16 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

1. 99.99% of Muslims are peaceful. In fact, Islam preaches far more peace than it does war.

I do not agree with this. But, that is just my opinion. ;D

Well, as someone who's spent the better part of the last decade fighting them, I think it's safe to say I'm basing this information off of firsthand experience

Also, most Muslims see Americans the same way. Then again, far more than 0.01% of Americans hate Muslims, so at least their prejudice has some truth behind it. Most Muslims and people living in primarily Muslim countries just want to feed their families and get through their day. They don't give two shits about world affairs, or jihad, or even violence. They just herd their goats and grow their poppy.

[Cerb]

I think I agree with the concept that most Muslims are peaceful. They can be insighted to acts of extremism, but so can anyone.

I guess the big thing here is that I believe they have the right to be there, and the people have a right to protest it with peaceful assembly and verbal protests.

I frankly don't thing the legality of the structure can be blocked, even if the leader is frothing at the mouth and screaming burn the infedel scum. Of course, I also believe that if they do froth at the mouth like that they should be deported if they are here on a visa, and lose their citizenship if they are naturalized.

[Aina-okalan]

I'm just upset that this is even an issue to begin with. I have a hard time seeing why there can be a church anywhere in the United States, but there can't be a mosque near ground zero. The only reasons I can think of are ignorance, prejudice, and intolerance. I also agree with Zarwa on the fact that people might not be safe walking out of the mosque

[Guy]

Jul 17, 2010 21:29:25 GMT -5 Bad Infinitum said:

Jul 17, 2010 12:37:19 GMT -5 Kranusilika said:

I do not agree with this. But, that is just my opinion. ;D

Well, as someone who's spent the better part of the last decade fighting them, I think it's safe to say I'm basing this information off of firsthand experience

Also, most Muslims see Americans the same way. Then again, far more than 0.01% of Americans hate Muslims, so at least their prejudice has some truth behind it. Most Muslims and people living in primarily Muslim countries just want to feed their families and get through their day. They don't give two shits about world affairs, or jihad, or even violence. They just herd their goats and grow their poppy.

There are way more than 0.01% that support terrorism in the Muslim countries west of Afghanistan. About 70% probably support terrorism against Israel, 10% against the U.S. and other Western countries. Those countries are much more political than Afghanistan, where all the people care (and frankly can care about) is their sheep.

If you include India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Afghanistan, the figures go down a lot.

[Bad Infinitum]

Which is just another reason why the war is folly

[Pompadoodle]

I suspect that one reason for the Afghans not supporting militant fundamentalism is that they've had the experience of being ruled by the Taliban. Nothing like living in a country run by bloodthirsty fanatics to turn you against fanaticism.

In the Arab world, islamic fundamentalism is able to maintain support partly because it hasn't been tried...yet. So in places like Yemen, Algeria and Saudi, fundamentalist propaganda still fools people- they don't know what it really leads to. And support for fundamentalism generally entails support for the 'struggle' against western values, and western countries.

It kinda reminds me of Europe during the Cold War. Among the left there was widespread admiration of the Soviet system, especially in France and Italy. In Eastern Europe, people had actually experienced the joys of Communism, and so there were far fewer illusions.

[Kranusilika]

Jul 17, 2010 22:52:06 GMT -5 Guy said:

There are way more than 0.01% that support terrorism in the Muslim countries west of Afghanistan. About 70% probably support terrorism against Israel, 10% against the U.S. and other Western countries. Those countries are much more political than Afghanistan, where all the people care (and frankly can care about) is their sheep.

If you include India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Afghanistan, the figures go down a lot.

This was my point in disagreeing with the .01% figure provided. I concur that there are many Christians and other religions that have a problem with Muslims or more specifically the Islam religion. But I also suspect that there are an equal amount (or close to +/-) of followers of Islam that have a problem with Christians, Jews, etc.
Now, what is that figure? Who knows. But I feel it is naive to feel that one religion is more Peaceful than another. All have had their history of disputes and most importantly ALL religions are made up of people who are naturally flawed.

[dels]

Jul 21, 2010 7:45:44 GMT -5 Kranusilika said:

Jul 17, 2010 22:52:06 GMT -5 Guy said:

There are way more than 0.01% that support terrorism in the Muslim countries west of Afghanistan. About 70% probably support terrorism against Israel, 10% against the U.S. and other Western countries. Those countries are much more political than Afghanistan, where all the people care (and frankly can care about) is their sheep.

If you include India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Afghanistan, the figures go down a lot.

This was my point in disagreeing with the .01% figure provided. I concur that there are many Christians and other religions that have a problem with Muslims or more specifically the Islam religion. But I also suspect that there are an equal amount (or close to +/-) of followers of Islam that have a problem with Christians, Jews, etc.
Now, what is that figure? Who knows. But I feel it is naive to feel that one religion is more Peaceful than another. All have had their history of disputes and most importantly ALL religions are made up of people who are naturally flawed.

More like, all religions are naturally flawed. People in general are either violent or peaceful and what religion you are doesnt dictate that. Islam teaches peace but its people take from it what they want to same as Christianity.

[Bigfist]

I agree that if they owned the place they have a right to build on the land.

[Bigfist]

Hey let's look at this from a different perspective. Would those people that were raising their voice against this thought; would I yell if Christians built a church in Israel? The overall answer I'm guessing is no. Also, if building a mosque in America is wrong then teaching Christianity in different countries where the majority of people aren't Christians should be wrong. So if the government listens to these hypocritical, insane, nutcases then the only thing to say is that the American way is lost in a bottomless pit of religious arguments.

[Kranusilika]

To sum up, I personally understand the families of the 9/11 victims being upset that the Mosque will be put up near ground zero. We have to realize that many see the religion to blame, many see the Muslim people to be blamed. right, wrong or indifferent, this is sometimes how the human mind works. Unless you were affected by 9/11 like they were, it is not possible to justify or disqualify their feelings towards the religion or the people.
However, legally and to the morals of what the USA is based on, they have the right to build the Mosque wherever they choose.
I again think that it is in bad taste and too soon, but one could argue that it brings a sense of what America is about by mixing a bad situation (9/11) with the birth of an understanding and tolerance in having the Mosque built so close to the area that is somewhat sacred in many people's mind.

Like everyone else in this country, I am entitled to my opinion, but ones opinion can not outweigh the Laws and Morals of an entire country. Either way, this nation will face a dilemma.

[Takaram]

Actually, I think I saw that several families of 9/11 victims support the construction of the mosque.