Post by Candlewhisper on Oct 5, 2015 9:53:41 GMT -5
Person67 has kindly taken it on himself to send me some emails enquiring about my nation. As it turns out, a kind enquiry is actually a straight out attack on the feasibility of my nation and my right to play it in these fora.
Therefore I am stopping use of the roleplaying fora until I get some guidance from more experienced rpers here. Personally, I can't believe that "a country whose main industry is information dealing" is so radical a concept that it can't fit within the 10ki rp game world.
So here's the conversation in full:
person67:
hey just wondering how does your nation's economy works. what is your main industries are you a private or public sector based economy. do you trade with other nations. I am just confused about how your nation makes money.
me:
Hey, thanks for the query!
The national currency is anchored to the data reserves, and indeed the Datum is the national unit of currency. The no-privacy laws of Candlewhisper still allow data to be bought and sold, and though there's technically nothing to stop a buyer of data then redistributing that data for free, the big data sellers can rely on advertising and search engine prominence to make money. With no censorship of any sort there's a darker more unsavoury side to the data trading in Candlewhisper: you can buy pretty much anything you like legally - pornography without moral limitation (though the making of immoral pornography is illegal, the distribution of it isn't), technical information without legal or ethical restriction (blueprints for nuclear and bioweapons? sure!) and you can find out almost anything you want to know about anyone, for a price.
Aside from that the nation has a more conventional economy in other forms: finance markets, manufacturing and retail sectors, and so on.
person67:
let me make this clear you cannot have data handling as your main industry. you have to rely on other kinds of work mainly.
me:
Can you clarify the context we are talking about here? When you say "cannot", are you saying that someone is forbidding this, or that you are logically challenging the feasibility of this fiction?
person67:
logical challenge to the feasibility. won't work based on all my understanding of economics
me:
Oh right, never mind then. Cheers for the feedback, but its my fiction and I'm sticking with it.
person67:
yes but this is realistic fiction. this is a role- playing game which is based on reality I know it it's a nice idea but this isn't the way this place this works.
me:
Alright, lets debate the reality of it then.
We have a setting with a hefty world population and internet / information technology access is almost universal. Within that setting we have a nation that is culturally attached to the idea of the value of data and the movement of information. Sure, there's free information out there, but that doesn't reduce the idea of data being a sellable product.
Lets look at real world analogies - fashion lines and expensive clothes shops exist, even though anyone can go to a charity shop and buy a sweater for 50 pence. Online music and movie stores persist and profit, despite the fact that you can legally and illegally acquire these things for free. People still buy Rihanna on iTunes despite being able to watch her for free on YouTube. Likewise, despite a massive amount of free porn on the internet, there is still a vast amount of profit in selling internet porn.
The sale of data is the primary industry of the Candlewhisper economy.
Note also that Candlewhisper isn't a wealthy nation with a world-leading economy: its a small nation that has a lopsided economic base resulting from its cultural biases.
Now, if you're going to criticise the realism of this, I'm going to need a coherent counter-argument, not just a statement that you don't personally see it as feasible. I perceive it as entirely feasible in the near future setting of the rp world established: convince me otherwise.
person67:
first of all a number of nations restrict the internet. my people can only see government approved sites. secondly it doesn't make tat much money and is making less with piracy to base an entire economy on it is very hard. bearing in mind you don't actually make music videos or clothes line but just the data for them. the data has no value it is the items people are buying. You aren't creating data your just reselling it. Fact is what would your nation economy have been before the internet as well.
me:
Well, before the internet, we made a lot of cheese.
Worth noting that data trading is just the core of the economic model. That's obviously not the whole of the economy, and there's a lot of knock on effect.
Anyway, basically this is shown on my nationstates page:
"The sizeable but inefficient Candlewhisper Archivean economy, worth 8.65 trillion Data a year, is broadly diversified and led by the Information Technology industry, with major contributions from Book Publishing, Soda Sales, and Tourism. Average income is 53,423 Data, and evenly distributed, with the richest citizens earning only 4.7 times as much as the poorest."
That bit is by far from the least feasible thing about the country: its population growth in the space of a month springs to mind, as does the sustainability of a country that has no confidentiality laws. The country's fiction as a whole about as feasible as the setting of Jennifer Government, and that, I think, is in the spirit of the game.
Also, I think its somewhat silly to say what may and may not be a valid economic model in a world which has trillions of people and still more or less 21st century tech, and way more nations than our own world has.
person67:
you are aware this is separate to NS
me:
I appreciate your interest in the integrity of the game fiction, but I believe that as a GM-free consensually created game world I have as much right as any one to define what the game world consists of, especially with regards to how I depict my nation. I'm taking this to the OOC forum to see if anyone else has an opinion.
And that's where I've left it for now. As far as I'm concerned, I'm being criticised by someone whose only contribution is "doesn't work, not in my game."
So here's where we reach decision time for me.
I'd like to hear back from other rpers and use of this forum. Is my nation one that can be played as it stands, within the rp forums? If the majority answer is no, then thats pretty straightforward for me. I'll just leave the rp fora.
If the answer is yes, then I know where the community stands.
For the record I am now aware that this is a separate game world to nationstates, though I admit that seems a perverse decision to make given that this is a forum linked to nationstates. CentralRuska's player informed me of that after I presented my national biography, and I made the appropriate edits.
However, while being a separate world, we are still coming to this forum from nationstates, and presumably with the intention of getting some thematically related roleplaying done.
So anyway, questions:
1) Is my nation's background unfeasible for the setting, in your opinion?
2) Can I game with it here, as it stands?
I know person67's vote already, so I'd like to hear from others. Thanks.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Therefore I am stopping use of the roleplaying fora until I get some guidance from more experienced rpers here. Personally, I can't believe that "a country whose main industry is information dealing" is so radical a concept that it can't fit within the 10ki rp game world.
So here's the conversation in full:
person67:
hey just wondering how does your nation's economy works. what is your main industries are you a private or public sector based economy. do you trade with other nations. I am just confused about how your nation makes money.
me:
Hey, thanks for the query!
The national currency is anchored to the data reserves, and indeed the Datum is the national unit of currency. The no-privacy laws of Candlewhisper still allow data to be bought and sold, and though there's technically nothing to stop a buyer of data then redistributing that data for free, the big data sellers can rely on advertising and search engine prominence to make money. With no censorship of any sort there's a darker more unsavoury side to the data trading in Candlewhisper: you can buy pretty much anything you like legally - pornography without moral limitation (though the making of immoral pornography is illegal, the distribution of it isn't), technical information without legal or ethical restriction (blueprints for nuclear and bioweapons? sure!) and you can find out almost anything you want to know about anyone, for a price.
Aside from that the nation has a more conventional economy in other forms: finance markets, manufacturing and retail sectors, and so on.
person67:
let me make this clear you cannot have data handling as your main industry. you have to rely on other kinds of work mainly.
me:
Can you clarify the context we are talking about here? When you say "cannot", are you saying that someone is forbidding this, or that you are logically challenging the feasibility of this fiction?
person67:
logical challenge to the feasibility. won't work based on all my understanding of economics
me:
Oh right, never mind then. Cheers for the feedback, but its my fiction and I'm sticking with it.
person67:
yes but this is realistic fiction. this is a role- playing game which is based on reality I know it it's a nice idea but this isn't the way this place this works.
me:
Alright, lets debate the reality of it then.
We have a setting with a hefty world population and internet / information technology access is almost universal. Within that setting we have a nation that is culturally attached to the idea of the value of data and the movement of information. Sure, there's free information out there, but that doesn't reduce the idea of data being a sellable product.
Lets look at real world analogies - fashion lines and expensive clothes shops exist, even though anyone can go to a charity shop and buy a sweater for 50 pence. Online music and movie stores persist and profit, despite the fact that you can legally and illegally acquire these things for free. People still buy Rihanna on iTunes despite being able to watch her for free on YouTube. Likewise, despite a massive amount of free porn on the internet, there is still a vast amount of profit in selling internet porn.
The sale of data is the primary industry of the Candlewhisper economy.
Note also that Candlewhisper isn't a wealthy nation with a world-leading economy: its a small nation that has a lopsided economic base resulting from its cultural biases.
Now, if you're going to criticise the realism of this, I'm going to need a coherent counter-argument, not just a statement that you don't personally see it as feasible. I perceive it as entirely feasible in the near future setting of the rp world established: convince me otherwise.
person67:
first of all a number of nations restrict the internet. my people can only see government approved sites. secondly it doesn't make tat much money and is making less with piracy to base an entire economy on it is very hard. bearing in mind you don't actually make music videos or clothes line but just the data for them. the data has no value it is the items people are buying. You aren't creating data your just reselling it. Fact is what would your nation economy have been before the internet as well.
me:
Well, before the internet, we made a lot of cheese.
Worth noting that data trading is just the core of the economic model. That's obviously not the whole of the economy, and there's a lot of knock on effect.
Anyway, basically this is shown on my nationstates page:
"The sizeable but inefficient Candlewhisper Archivean economy, worth 8.65 trillion Data a year, is broadly diversified and led by the Information Technology industry, with major contributions from Book Publishing, Soda Sales, and Tourism. Average income is 53,423 Data, and evenly distributed, with the richest citizens earning only 4.7 times as much as the poorest."
That bit is by far from the least feasible thing about the country: its population growth in the space of a month springs to mind, as does the sustainability of a country that has no confidentiality laws. The country's fiction as a whole about as feasible as the setting of Jennifer Government, and that, I think, is in the spirit of the game.
Also, I think its somewhat silly to say what may and may not be a valid economic model in a world which has trillions of people and still more or less 21st century tech, and way more nations than our own world has.
person67:
you are aware this is separate to NS
me:
I appreciate your interest in the integrity of the game fiction, but I believe that as a GM-free consensually created game world I have as much right as any one to define what the game world consists of, especially with regards to how I depict my nation. I'm taking this to the OOC forum to see if anyone else has an opinion.
And that's where I've left it for now. As far as I'm concerned, I'm being criticised by someone whose only contribution is "doesn't work, not in my game."
So here's where we reach decision time for me.
I'd like to hear back from other rpers and use of this forum. Is my nation one that can be played as it stands, within the rp forums? If the majority answer is no, then thats pretty straightforward for me. I'll just leave the rp fora.
If the answer is yes, then I know where the community stands.
For the record I am now aware that this is a separate game world to nationstates, though I admit that seems a perverse decision to make given that this is a forum linked to nationstates. CentralRuska's player informed me of that after I presented my national biography, and I made the appropriate edits.
However, while being a separate world, we are still coming to this forum from nationstates, and presumably with the intention of getting some thematically related roleplaying done.
So anyway, questions:
1) Is my nation's background unfeasible for the setting, in your opinion?
2) Can I game with it here, as it stands?
I know person67's vote already, so I'd like to hear from others. Thanks.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.