Grub Endorsements (From 3/04 elections)

[Naoi]

To each his own...

As I have said to Texarcana, and as I will now say to you, I can hold nothing but respect for you, as you are standing up for what you believe in against a vast majority. I may not agree with what you have to say, but I would fight to death to protect your right to say it. That was Voltaire, if I'm not mistaken. I swear, if you want something good to say, then just look to the French.

Keep fighting the fight and standing up for what you believe in, especially if you know in your heart that it is right. To keep you from doing this would be purly hypocritical on my part, and against my entire platform for senate.

[Anceltierre]

I have to agree with Naoi here. And if anyone hasn't noticed you're all exercising the right to your opinion, just as Grub has...

[Naoi]

All in all, I just wanna say that I don't agree with you, but know that I don't hate you, or anything of like that. I like a good argument, just ask my friends! Better yet, my mom! I swear, she can NEVER get me to shut up.

[psychologese]

No hard feelings, Naoi, but I actually don't think you ever understood my point <sigh>...I must not have been expressing it clearly . Perhaps another day...

Thanks for being so considerate .

Psychologese

[Naoi]

You know, I don't think I did understand your point. We seemed to just shout the same arguments back and forth. I could sense the frustration growing in each of your posts.

I understood what you both meant when you spoke of how much weight Grub's voice carried. It also made a little sense as to how this could shift people's desicions. But still it's their desicion whether or not his word's will affect who to vote for.

[psychologese]

Anceltierre said:

I have to agree with Naoi here. And if anyone hasn't noticed you're all exercising the right to your opinion, just as Grub has...

Anceltierre, it sure looks like everything is equal, doesn't it? We all freely express our opinions in the marketplace of ideas, and the market (that is the popular vote) decides who wins. Well, that's how democracy is supposed to work, but in 10,000 Islands, everyone gets to express their opinions and then Grub gets to decide who wins. (If anyone provides me with one historic counter-example, I'll withdraw this statement and humbly apologize)

As I said, I don't really object to Grub making decisions by virture of his role as founder and his experience with NS. Lots of very successful organizations are run this way, and there is no compelling reason that 10,000 islands should be a democracy.

All I'm asking for is truth in advertising. If Grub has the ultimate power to make all decisions, including who sits on the Senate (notice that Psychologese is not running, so I have nothing at stake), then let's not pretend this is a democracy and hold elections. Let Grub just appoint the Senate. Or alternatively, if we're going to have elections, then let's have real elections in which Grub doesn't decide who wins.

Respectfully submitted by the Republic of Psychologese

[Odracir]

Grub doesn't decide who wins. He just endorses whoever he thinks will be best fit for the roles. Then the people vote for whoever they think will be best. It is a democracy. The people vote for their Senators, Grub doesn't appoint them, and the elections aren't a "rubber stamp" to his appointments. If the citizen nations of the 10000 Islands don't want to elect the people that Grub endorses, then they won't vote for them.

[psychologese]

Naoi said:

I understood what you both meant when you spoke of how much weight Grub's voice carried. It also made a little sense as to how this could shift people's desicions. But still it's their desicion whether or not his word's will affect who to vote for.

Of course it's their decision and obviously there is not 100% conformity. I, for example, voted for you , but let's pretend that there is always 75% conformity to Grub's position (I think that's about what it is), since only a majority is required, this means that Grub gets to call the winner each time. As I said in the previous post, I have absolutely no objection to that, but then let's not pretend that we're participating in a democratic process.

Thanks for trying to understand, where I'm coming from Naoi. As far I can tell, you're the only one who'se made the effort

[Naoi]

Have you read my campaign posts? I wasn't just rambling pretty words. Everything anyone says should be taken into consideration. Even if you don't like something, it's going to happen, so you might as well at least try to understand it or there will never be peace.

BTW-Any nations interested in helping to create a 10000 Island home page, please visit the Role Playing board and the "Get to know..." thread

[psychologese]

Odracir said:

Grub doesn't decide who wins. He just endorses whoever he thinks will be best fit for the roles. Then the people vote for whoever they think will be best. It is a democracy. The people vote for their Senators, Grub doesn't appoint them, and the elections aren't a "rubber stamp" to his appointments. If the citizen nations of the 10000 Islands don't want to elect the people that Grub endorses, then they won't vote for them.

I understand that this is how you (and probably most others) see the reality of 10,000 Islands. Obviously, I see it differently. If you can give me one (just one!) example of an election or a decision (even a minor one) that did not go Grub's way then I will concede that I am mistaken. My argument is based on what I've read in this forum, but as you know, much of the forum is password protected, so there is much that I don't (and cannot) know.

[psychologese]

Naoi said:

Have you read my campaign posts? I wasn't just rambling pretty words. Everything anyone says should be taken into consideration. Even if you don't like something, it's going to happen, so you might as well at least try to understand it or there will never be peace.

And that's one of the reasons you got my vote, but anyone can, as you said, use pretty words. I'm impressed that you're also walking the walk. Good luck with the region homepage.

[Fleeb]

...watches long-winded dead horse drop into legs-up position...

From the other end of the telescope...so, if we were looking around for someone, perhaps much misunderstood, who was in actuality a mole and agent provocateur designing to raise distrust and dissension in a region and undermine confidence in the leadership, what exactly might they look like and what kinds of things might they say?

[Bad Infinitum]

They would probably say stuff like "let's stop pretending this is a democracy..." and I don't want to name names, but their initials are Psychologese.

Just joking, I figured this board could use some new light. Nothing against Psy, I just needed a scapegoat for the joke. Who better than the one making the most noise?

I've decided to not have an opinion in this topic. I stated mine, and it was shot down. I thank those who did support me though.

[ALEN]

ye i.m keeping out of this one aswell

*runs away*

[grmsr]

PLease let's not get paranoid people. We all have a right and I think a duty to speak our minds. Everyone knows where I stand on this subject but I think we've discussed it to death.

We should consider a constitutional amendment on this matter of Grub endorsing candidates !!

[Odracir]

Now you are just being ridiculous Texarcana. A constitutional ammendment saying that Grub can't endorse people? It is already in the constitution that all nations have a freedom of speech, and this falls under that. Grub has the right to endorse people as much as you do. Just because he's the Founder, it doesn't mean that he should have less rights than everyone else in the region.

[grmsr]

In a true democracy there are no founders. In this game we must have a founder and we do, and he's awesome at it. However his endorsement or lack of endorsement carries so much weight with the average person that it's an unfair use of power. Has anyone that GRub endorsed ever lost an election ? Answer is NO !!!

That doesn't sound like a real democracy to me. I'm sure it's not Grub's intention to control things in that manner, but the fact is he does !!

[Fleeb]

You are setting up an absolute fiction with your and Psy's definition of a "true" democracy. There is NO instance in the history of the world where there was such a "pure" form of egalitarianism. (The voters in Pericles' Athens made up about 10% of the population.) The places where they lusted for such a unicorn-like phantasm quickly became nightmares: Jacobin France (equal height guaranteed by Mademoiselle le Guillotine), Bolshevik-soon-to-become-Stalinist Russia...you know the line up).

Democracy as you describe it is only approached tangentially in situations where there are few external challenges to a society's survival. Otherwise, some sort of command structure is necessary to obtain the coordination and compliance required to produce survival when challenged.

In case you haven't figured it out, NS is a game where people really are trying to whack your region. It pays to be somewhat paranoid. It's called reality orientation.

And you need to remember this is only our second (2nd) election, so you're going to have trouble finding a lot of trends or examples of anything.

Go ahead--propose the amendment, please. We need a clear up and down on this. Procedure is outlined in Article 6.1. of the constitution. Get on with it.

[Bad Infinitum]

Didn't Vladamir Lenin lead the Bolsheviks?

That's probably what you were saying, but I'm not thinking straight today.

[Fleeb]

Sure, but he died (maybe with some help) --the end result was 30+years of Stalin equalizing people his way.

[Odracir]

From the Constitution of the 10000 Islands:

"5.2. Freedom of speech. The general government shall make no law restricting the freedom of speech within the 10000 Islands beyond those rules governing all participation and etiquette in NationStates. In keeping with the NationStates rules of etiquette, the following behaviors will constitute grounds for immediate ejection from the region and reporting to the game moderators:"

So there it is. A constitutional ammendment banning Grub endorsing people is in itself unconstitutional, since it restricts his freedom of speech. And a constitutional ammendment saying that Grub elects the Senators goes against Article 3.1 of the Constitution of the 10000 Islands:

"3.1. The Senate shall be comprised of The Chief Executive, the UN Delegate, the Ministers of Executive Departments, and four Senators elected by all UN Nations of The 10000 Islands. "

[Fleeb]

I wanted to see if he could get the 10 endorsements for the amendment.

[Odracir]

I doubt it. He would get 3 at the most. Himself, Texarcana, and someone else is bound to endorse it just to see what happens in the Council of Nine. If I am Senator when this is proposed, I'll vote against it.

[Bad Infinitum]

I would never support an amendment to limit free speech or democracy. Let's face it people, that's just stupid. Honestly.

Grub's voice is so readily heard and accepted because of all of his hard work and excellent decision making. Psychologese, you have what, five, six posts? Fifty-six million people?

I tried to change things when I first moved here, but I would never, ever limit the political and personal freedoms of my peers or leaders.

I though I didn't have an opinion until a few minutes ago. As of this post, I am firmly against your cause, although I do respect the fact that you stood up for what you believe in.

[psychologese]

I'm not with Texarcana re: an ammendment restricting Grub from making endorsements. That does limit free speech, the right to which Psychologese supports fully.

I would however be interested in proposing an ammendment that gives Grub the power to appoint his Senate. The fact that this is currently not constitutional is irrelevant, since the whole point of an ammendment is to change a part of the constitution. That is, unless the constitution is not subject to change.

So, would someone be kind enough to tell me where the right place is to propose an ammendment? I'm curious to see if it gets 10 endorsements too

[Odracir]

In the general 10000 Islands forum.

[Naoi]

Texarcana said:

In a true democracy there are no founders.

So why do we call them the FOUNDING Fathers of America...

[Parthini]

Texarcana: You are being contradictory to your own Liberatian ideas. Correct me if I am wrong, but libertarians fully believe in free speech for all, so why should someone in power be limited?

Psychologese: There is a reason we have senators. That reason is that the people of 10000 Islands will have somewhat of a say in what goes on "inside". Appointing senators by Grub alone would make this a dictatorship like the Pacific. I don't want that. That's why I made that part in the constitution.

GPP

[Bad Infinitum]

Amen, Parthini.

Other than that, all I have to say has been said. At that, I don't even think any of it needed to be said.

Let's not be like the Pacific. We've got enough beef with them as it is, the worst thing to do now is copy off of them.

Oi.

[TheSensitiveNewAge]

A Senate would be pointless if Grub just appointed people, they would be advisors in that case.